Note values in Schumann

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John Ruggero
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Re: Note values in Schumann

Post by John Ruggero »

Anders, I meant that the expected release that most pianists would use might have been a contributing factor to his decision to use a simple notation over a complex one. The other aspects you mentioned were certainly in play and affected his decision not to clutter up the score with unnecessary notes and rests.

And for the same reason, one finds double stemmed notes showing the holding of notes without intervening rests quite frequently in piano music:
Schumann Abegg.jpeg
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Last edited by John Ruggero on 07 Jun 2020, 12:31, edited 1 time in total.
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David Ward
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Re: Note values in Schumann

Post by David Ward »

Which sort of comes back to my original question as to whether or not it is appropriate for a contemporary composer to do this.

I have not written a lot of piano music, but am contemplating at least one, maybe two song cycles for a husband and wife who are able to perform together on-line at present, and who will perhaps be able to perform more readily together when lockdown first begins to lift here in Scotland than might singer/pianist duos from different households.

I'm guessing that if the textures, especially the rhythms, are relatively straightforward it should be OK; but maybe not if the music, again especially the rhythms, are very unstable and complex (not what I'm proposing, but these things sometimes have a life of their own).
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John Ruggero
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Re: Note values in Schumann

Post by John Ruggero »

Sorry, David, it did take a while, but by the more interesting, circuitous route. ;)

I think it depends on the situation. If you want an exact release of the held note, use an exact notation. If not, don't.
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Anders Hedelin
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Re: Note values in Schumann

Post by Anders Hedelin »

John, maybe both our explanations are equally plausible. In the rather common notation of your Abegg example it would seem quite obvious that the quarters are meant as quarters, possibly less so in "Am leuchtenden Sommermorgen" (because of the unusual rhythmic placement of the quarters).

That Schumann also, occasionally, notated rhythms in an approximate way may be seen in the first example below (from the last song of the same cycle):
Schumann - rhythmic notation 2.PNG
Schumann - rhythmic notation 2.PNG (119.63 KiB) Viewed 4367 times
The reason for the incorrect dotted half-notes in the melody may have been to point out that they are longer than the (correct) regular ones. Again, notating the rhythm correctly with more tied-over notes would result in cluttering, and worsen the already complex notation. Also, substituting the dotted halves with regular ones would have been incorrect, 'in the wrong direction' too (making them too short).

The melody is Schumannesquely displaced by an eighth. The 'prototype' (the 'undisplaced' version) might look like in the second example. There we have the dotted halves again, now correct - but I wouldn't think that should have influenced a rhythmic equilibrist like Schumann.
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John Ruggero
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Re: Note values in Schumann

Post by John Ruggero »

Anders, I think that we are in complete agreement and that all of these factors were in play. These composers thought of music notation as a language to be used, not as rules to be followed. The attitude was to get the point across in the clearest and simplest way possible. However, already by the time of the Breitkopf and Haertel Complete Works, rules had became very important. Here is a comparison of the first edition and the Breitkopf:
Schumann 1st ed.jpeg
Schumann 1st ed.jpeg (119 KiB) Viewed 4349 times
Schumann B&H.jpeg
Schumann B&H.jpeg (95.76 KiB) Viewed 4349 times
The dotted half notes without the tied notes would have sufficed, but perhaps Schumann was convinced that most players wouldn't otherwise observe the legato in the way required to have complete control of this incredibly heartfelt melody, or the inconsistency with the tied over eighth notes bothered him.
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David Ward
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Re: Note values in Schumann

Post by David Ward »

Yes, I've just listened to Christian Gerhaher & Gerold Huber in that last song. The Breitkopf edition (which I have here) is immediately clear to me as a non-Pianist, so that I could read it in my head before confirming the reality via the recording. The original notation had me scratching that same head for a bit, although I did get the point after a moment or two.

One phenomenon I find as a non-pianist when reading piano scores is my frequent aural misinterpretation of the pedalling. Even when listening to real pianists, I often find the jangle of overtones from the pedal quite disturbing. Maybe this is just me.
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John Ruggero
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Re: Note values in Schumann

Post by John Ruggero »

Where as I, as a pianist, much prefer the first edition notation, which was retained in the Peters edition.

A pianist interprets such notations physically, which makes them much simpler than they look. After noting that the melody is displaced because it falls on the top notes of the accompaniment pattern and that the melody is to be connected by binding the notes with the outer fingers 4 5 4 5 4 5 4 and knowing well how that feels to do, the rest of it, the tied notes and such, is a foregone conclusion and ignored. Keyboard music is filled with held notes of all kinds, much of it unnotated. This presented a real notational problem from the very beginning, and every composer has had to come up with a solution for it.

Concerning pedaling: If the pianist is jangling the overtones, the player is pedaling badly, unless, of course, the composer wants a jangle. Good pedaling is unnoticed pedaling.
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Anders Hedelin
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Re: Note values in Schumann

Post by Anders Hedelin »

Irregular notations are fascinating, I think. Here's another Schumann example, from the Symphonic Etudes.
This is what I found in my Peters edition when I was a young student:
Schumann Symphonic Etudes Peters.PNG
Schumann Symphonic Etudes Peters.PNG (62.66 KiB) Viewed 4316 times
My then piano teacher claimed that Schumann wrote it differently, and incorrectly, like here in the B&H edition:
Schumann Symphonic Etudes B&H.PNG
Schumann Symphonic Etudes B&H.PNG (55.94 KiB) Viewed 4316 times
- and that another, and better, interpretation than Peters' would be:
Schumann Symphonic Etudes alternative interpretation.PNG
Schumann Symphonic Etudes alternative interpretation.PNG (52.88 KiB) Viewed 4316 times
I wonder if Schumann actually wrote the rhythm like in B&H, and how to interpret it - the Peters way or my teacher's way?

The example could be said to be built on variations on dotted rhythms, in an allusion to Baroque style. Schubert and Chopin, I think, often used the old, rough Baroque notation of dotted rhythms, which had to be understood and interpreted, also when they didn't intend anything like a Baroque style. How about Schumann?
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John Ruggero
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Re: Note values in Schumann

Post by John Ruggero »

Your teacher was correct. It was a often often-used abbreviation, perhaps taken over from the Baroque and often associated with trills with a three note Nachschlag. Here is an example from Brahms Piano Concerto no.1 from the first edition. The engraver didn't quite get the left hand sixteenth right in the first measure of the trills but did at the end:
dotted rhythm 1.jpeg
dotted rhythm 1.jpeg (43.92 KiB) Viewed 4305 times
dotted rhythm 2.jpeg
dotted rhythm 2.jpeg (38.13 KiB) Viewed 4305 times
The editor of the Breitkopf Complete Works wrote in the correct interpretation as a footnote in the score:
dotted rhythm 3.jpeg
dotted rhythm 3.jpeg (9.73 KiB) Viewed 4305 times
Last edited by John Ruggero on 09 Jun 2020, 14:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Anders Hedelin
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Re: Note values in Schumann

Post by Anders Hedelin »

I guess your example with Nachsläge is somewhat different from mine. Nachsläge are part of a trill, and therefore part fo the trill's speed, slightly slower or not. In the Symphonic Etudes' example there are no Nachsläge, and therefore the rhythm has to be more decided upon.
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