Note values in Schumann

[John Ruggero]

The cases are actually the same. The 32nd notes in the Brahms are traditionally played exactly in time as shown by the editor and without the emphasis on the first note of the three 32nds that one would feel if played as a triplet.

[Anders Hedelin]

Well, the cases would have been the same, hadn't it been for there being a trill in one case and there being none in the other.

[John Ruggero]

I think there is internal evidence to support the non-triplet interpretation in the Symphonic Etude.

Later where he fills in the rests in the opening "subject", he uses an double-dotted eighth note to fill in what was previously an eighth note/ sixteenth rest/ 64th note rest

Schumann double dots 1.jpeg (30.54 KiB) Viewed 3191 times

imprecise double dotted eighth.jpeg (18.72 KiB) Viewed 3191 times

Has he has suddenly changed to 64th note triplets? I find that very hard to believe, (despite the double-stemmed 32nd note, which to me is just another example of the imprecise notation that started this thread) because later there is direct imitation between both versions of the subject. Are two different rhythms intended here or is he just using approximate notation?

Schumann double dots 2.jpeg (75.39 KiB) Viewed 3191 times

At times these composers seem to be counting on the musical import of the passage to clarify the notation. In this case:

1. The subject moves in a very Baroque rhythmic augmentation from 64th notes, then 32nd-notes and finally a 16th note upbeats, each beginning after a a single real 64th, real 32nd, and a real 16th rest or note.

2. To me, playing the 32nds as a triplet greatly diminishes the melodic importance of the final note of the three, when in truth this last note is a very expressive note that makes a dramatic octave leap to the next beat, which is answered by another octave leap.

Analysis corrected.jpeg (60.28 KiB) Viewed 3181 times

[Anders Hedelin]

Since I think Schumann knew the difference between dotted and double-dotted notes, this implies to me that he wanted a more flexible interpretation of the rhythm - sometimes 'in time' as it were, sometimes - with the double dots - the fast notes even faster. This is inspired music, mind.

[John Ruggero]

Nachsläge are part of a trill, and therefore part fo the trill's speed, slightly slower or not.

Well, the cases would have been the same, hadn't it been for there being a trill in one case and there being none in the other.

Sorry, I meant that cases are the same, because I don't think your point about the trill implying an inexact performance of the thirty second notes applies here since the main editor of Brahms' Complete Works, a close friend of Brahms and a very conscientious editor, writes it out out in an exact rhythm. But even if it were free like the after-beat to a trill, I think that it would best be unaccented and trail off gracefully, not take off energetically like a triplet.

I'll try to find another example. The "Prophet Bird" is entirely in this rhythm and I play it also as a graceful bird-like non-triplet, but this is contentious because in the one case that would nail it down, the MS positions the second note of the three 32nds over a sixteenth note, as I think it sounds best, but the other sixteenth notes are inexactly placed making this less convincing. The first edition and Complete works edition position the first note over the 16th note, implying triplets everywhere

[John Ruggero]

Free goes with the territory, that's for sure. But for me there is a big difference in feeling between the two rhythms, as I just described it above, free or not. Triplets are too exact-sounding and aggressive for this piece, and for the Prophet Bird.

[John Ruggero]

Here is an example of the dotted rhythm by J. S. Bach. Gigue from French Suite no. 1, the editor of the B&H Bach Gesellschaft shows how it is to be played, saying that it is the "old way" of writing this rhythm. Schumann and Brahms loved the "old ways" of the Baroque, particularly J. S. Bach's old ways.

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