Slur placement/shape

[David Ward]

Is it acceptable for the first slur in the piano (this is a vocal score) to be like this, crossing the hairpin, wide sweeping untamed shape etc etc?

To me, in purely aesthetic terms, it looks OK, but I suspect it is breaking several rules of engraving.

[Anders Hedelin]

I'm not aware of any rule that says that dynamics have to align horizontally, or that this would overrule other considerations. In your example, the three first dynamic markings seem to be grouped in dynamic symbol followed by a hairpin. Personally I would lift the first of these groups (p <), to give space for a more normal slur. There could be no misunderstanding of which notes the dynamics refer to.

[David Ward]

Thanks. Maybe something like this would be better?

[Anders Hedelin]

Yes! In my eyes at least, much better.

[John Ruggero]

I think so too. A pleasing slur shape often takes precedence in cases like this.

It does look over-marked, perhaps because it is an orchestral reduction? A simple swell from a P to a F would suffice for the pianist. If you move the staves apart the hairpins will fit.

A pedal termination does not have to be on the same level as the initial Ped. For better comprehension, it is best to place both symbols as close as possible to the the notes. Therefore, here the first pedal termination would be better placed on the level of the next Ped. symbol.

[David Ward]

It does look over-marked, perhaps because it is an orchestral reduction? A simple swell from a P to a F would suffice for the pianist. If you move the staves apart the hairpins will fit.

Yes, it's first bass clarinet, then clarinet, then flute. Might the different dynamics help suggest that, or are they just clutter?

A pedal termination does not have to be on the same level as the initial Ped. For better comprehension, it is best to place both symbols as close as possible to the the notes. Therefore, here the first pedal termination would be better placed on the level of the next Ped. symbol.

That's a useful piece of information from a pianist to a non-pianist. I struggle with vocal scores. Often I start by putting far too much in, despair, then take too much out!

[John Ruggero]

With the indicated pedaling, it appears to be typical piano passage that has been orchestrated, so knowing the instrumentation wouldn't seem to be necessary, nor would the individual dynamics. I would divide the notes between the hands, however. For example, the first five in the left hand and last 3 in the right, for each group in the first measure. Brahms thought that reductions should be as idiomatic for the piano as an original solo piece, and I agree.

[David Ward]

Brahms thought that reductions should be as idiomatic for the piano as an original solo piece, and I agree.

You (and Brahms) are right. However, trying to convert all my own highly coloured and idiomatic orchestral writing in a 90 minute, 1,800 bar piece to truly idiomatic piano writing might lead to my suffering a great deal of frustration without actually achieving that result. It needs to be serviceable, but can be improved later.

That said, I'll try to bear all you say in mind.

[John Ruggero]

I should also mention that a conscientious player would place a pedal gap between the two measures, because the termination is quite far from the next Ped. indication horizontally as well as vertically. If you wish overlapping pedal between the two measures, you could leave out the first termination completely, or place the two symbols very close together so there is no doubt about your intention.

It is for this reason that many publishers position the Ped. so that the "e" is under the first pedaled note, rather than the "P". This makes it possible to position a Ped. placed at the beginning of a measure quite close to a previous termination, while allowing the termination to remain within the previous measure.

[Anders Hedelin]

Just an idea: To capture more of the orchestral sound and the crescendo-diminuendo of the two measures (and also giving an A to the singer in good time), this might be a possibility:

DW.PNG (30.01 KiB) Viewed 3319 times

(The 32nds may be distributed between the hands as pointed out.)