Beethoven Brainteaser 2

Discuss the rules of notation, standard notation practices, efficient notation practices and graphic design.
User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 2453
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Beethoven Brainteaser 2

Post by John Ruggero »

I think that you are asking all the right questions. Yes, reading through the two pieces might very well yield a good understanding of what is going on. But you might have to think "outside the box."
M1 Mac mini (OS 12.4), Dorico, Finale 25.5, GPO 4, Affinity Publisher 2, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard maestro

http://www.cantilenapress.com
ttw
Posts: 12
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 11:55

Re: Beethoven Brainteaser 2

Post by ttw »

I didn't try to play these but I did look a bit closer. I found one dissertation and one book on performance interpretation. Neither were that helpful.

From looking at part of the score (in the first posts, and a few in the literature), it seems that the domain of these markings is shorter than I would have thought from looking at more modern pieces. Something like "cresc < dim cresc < dim" would make sense if the volume increase were followed by a "suddenish" drop in volume. It's almost like a rubato in dynamics rather than in tempo.

I didn't examine the underlying harmony to see if such an idea makes sense.
User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 2453
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Beethoven Brainteaser 2

Post by John Ruggero »

Sorry, btw, I didn't quite understand the "cresc < dim cresc < dim". But I think you solved why there can be two cresc.'s in a row in the first and second measure of the original example. Sometimes these composers use these. markings in a "localized" way, that is pertaining only to shortish section of music, and then an immediate return to the original dynamic is assumed although not specifically indicated. So the first of the cresc, markings is an upswell that is followed by a drop to the original dynamic, followed by another upswell.

Generalized, this might lead one to realize that these composers did not always think of these indications in the linear, straight-forward way we do today. It was far more nuanced and depended on context. Understanding this could lead one to a solution of the main puzzle concerning the hairpins and cresc. and dim. indications. So there is still another piece of the puzzle that remains to be solved.

Incidentally, another example of "localized" indications occurs frequently and famously in the music of Schumann. He writes ritards that are never canceled by an a tempo and apply only to short sections. The player is supposed to read between the lines to find where the return to tempo should take place. Usually it is obvious. The reason he did this, (and he is not the only one, examples occur in other composers of the time and earlier) is because of concern that the ritards would be taken out of context and exaggerated causing the section to become detached from the music around it.
M1 Mac mini (OS 12.4), Dorico, Finale 25.5, GPO 4, Affinity Publisher 2, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard maestro

http://www.cantilenapress.com
User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 2453
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Beethoven Brainteaser 2

Post by John Ruggero »

I finally offer the following solution to Beethoven Brainteaser 2.

In Beethoven's time and a bit beyond, hairpins can mean something different from the standard cresc. and dim.

The < hairpin could at times mean a sudden drop in dynamic level and growth in intensity. The > could at times mean a sudden emphasis the notes over which the hairpin starts and then a dying away, often very quickly. When the > the hairpin was placed over a note or two it was much like our present > accent. Thus we see the origin of the > accent as a very short diminuendo hairpin.

So the two > hairpins in ms. 98 and 99 below both mean to suddenly play with great intensity and fall off quickly, as would be fitting for the highly stressed appoggiaturas in the melody. The < hairpins in ms. 100 and 102 are also subito indications and mean to suddenly drop to allow room for the following swells. All of this is happening independently of the cresc. and dimin. indications which pertain to the music as a whole, which is why the two types of indications seem to rub shoulders with each other and be in conflict in places like m. 99 or redundant as in m. 101.
op 106.3A.png
op 106.3A.png (112.87 KiB) Viewed 560 times
op 106.3B.png
op 106.3B.png (327.03 KiB) Viewed 560 times
M1 Mac mini (OS 12.4), Dorico, Finale 25.5, GPO 4, Affinity Publisher 2, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard maestro

http://www.cantilenapress.com
musicus
Posts: 29
Joined: 05 Aug 2023, 22:13
Location: Norco, CA

Re: Beethoven Brainteaser 2

Post by musicus »

There's an interesting parallel at the end of Chopin's C# minor nocturne (Op.27). I'll post it later hopefully.
Post Reply