Beethoven Brainteaser 2

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John Ruggero
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Beethoven Brainteaser 2

Post by John Ruggero »

In the third movement of his piano sonata op. 106, Beethoven writes the following: What does it mean?

Hint: Chopin does it too and probably many times, so it's not a mistake.
Beethoven op 106.3.png
Beethoven op 106.3.png (481.8 KiB) Viewed 2120 times
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Re: Beethoven Brainteaser 2

Post by ttw »

My first guess is that it means to increase loudness on the first three RH notes (and perhaps the LH chord if not creating an imbalance), then drop off a bit at the "dim" and start a new crescendo at the next wedge.

Alternatively, I could read it as a crescendo for the RH upper voice and a decrescendo for the other voices (but not too much); both drop in volume at the dim.
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John Ruggero
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Re: Beethoven Brainteaser 2

Post by John Ruggero »

Guess one is literally what it means, but wouldn't Beethoven have used a pair of swell hairpins to show that? And does it make musical sense to swell on these three notes?

I refrain from Guess two to allow for additional responses. But I need to add a little more information. I think that there is an error in the text at this point (the manuscript was lost so we can't check that) and Beethoven actually intended this:
Beethoven op 106.3 Ruggero.png
Beethoven op 106.3 Ruggero.png (101.89 KiB) Viewed 2085 times
just as Chopin. wrote this:
Chopin MS op 10 no 3.png
Chopin MS op 10 no 3.png (207.27 KiB) Viewed 2089 times
and it was engraved like this in the first German edition:
Chopin op 10.3 1st Ger.png
Chopin op 10.3 1st Ger.png (204.87 KiB) Viewed 2089 times
The latter two examples are also a hint by way of another puzzle. Why did Chopin use BOTH a hairpin and a cresc.?
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David Ward
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Re: Beethoven Brainteaser 2

Post by David Ward »

FWIW I've always especially liked the way Schnabel plays this passage.
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Re: Beethoven Brainteaser 2

Post by John Ruggero »

Schnabel plays it as if the hairpin spans the entire three beats, as I think was actually intended and is shown in the second example above, but he omits any feeling of cresc, as if the marking didn't exist. In his own edition, however, he adheres to the standard engraving as shown in the first example (from the Schenker edition). So I think he really considered the cresc. to be an error and ignored it, but being quite a literalist in his beliefs felt he had to retain it in his edition. But as a musician he couldn't bring himself to actually do what is literally marked.

I find the figuration in this variation of the opening theme quite unique and very orchestral. I hear the tutti playing the lower notes of the right hand part on the beats as on the initial statement of this theme, and a solo violin playing a decorated version in 32nds above it. Which line should be emphasized to bring out this conception is an interesting question. I would take Beethocen's marking "sempre legato" at the beginning of this section very seriously and overhold all of the thumb notes and play the upper notes very delicately above it. Schnabel takes a more straight forward view of it, and in my opinion doesn't play it legato or delicately enough.

But this is all beside the point. Why are these composers using hairpins and cresc. and dim. indications simultaneously? Sometimes the markings seem redundant as in the Chopin example. Sometimes they are in conflict as in the Beethoven example. There is something going on here with the markings that is different from the way we use these markings today.
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Re: Beethoven Brainteaser 2

Post by Tpaloj »

For Beethoven's "brainteaser", I have no idea. Very peculiar, if we trust the print was copied accurately (misreading of decresc for cresc. or something alike? Or if the cresc. was meant for left hand only? Hard to say.)

Is it possible that in Chopin's case, he changed his mind about the placement of the cresc. and simply wrote the hairpin over it starting from the beginning of the measure?

Alternatively, there is a theory going around which claims Chopin indicated rubato playing with hairpins. In other words his hairpins could have indicated accelerando or ritenuto alongside volume as well. The Secret Life of Musical Notation by Roberto Poli is a title which goes into this in some detail with examples by other romantic period composers as well. I was not fully convinced by Poli's arguments (his tone was sometimes more conspiratorial than substantial), but it's something to think about.
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Re: Beethoven Brainteaser 2

Post by John Ruggero »

Hi Tpaioj. I found the Poli book interesting and he is asking a lot of good questions, but I agree with you about his reasoning. I wasn't convinced either and don't think the hairpins per se mean rubato. (But of course, rubato can sometimes accompany dynamic change.) I think that the explanation is something more mainstream and does involve dynamic changes.

Concerning the Chopin, if this were the only spot like this, you might be right about his changing his mind. But he usually meticulously crossed out (obsessively might be more accurate) what he didn't want engraved. And this not the only spot like this.

An example of Chopin' manuscript corrections:
Chopin Ballade no 2 MS.png
Chopin Ballade no 2 MS.png (1.92 MiB) Viewed 1900 times
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Re: Beethoven Brainteaser 2

Post by ttw »

My next guess (for using "cresc" and hairpins) is that the music is to be read (or at least phrased) contrapuntally. The emphasis for each hand occurs at different parts of the phrase. I didn't analyze enough to see which term applies to which part.
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John Ruggero
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Re: Beethoven Brainteaser 2

Post by John Ruggero »

Your third guess is along the same lines as your second one but better, I think. The cresc. might be for the rising line in the left hand and the hairpin for the falling line in the right hand. This assumes that the hairpin was. intended to apply to the first three beats, as I think is possibly the case in the lost MS.

But I don't think that this is the real solution because it doesn't explain why he is using both systems at the same time. Why the cresc. and dim. AND the hairpins. And not only here, but in the previous measures. It makes one feel that these indications have different meanings from each other and also different from what they mean to us today.

So the puzzle really has several parts to it: what do the hairpins really mean? And why is he using so many cresc.'s, one after each other in this measure and the two previous ones?
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Re: Beethoven Brainteaser 2

Post by ttw »

I'll make one more guess then look at some music notation papers that I have access to. One possibility is that the domains of the terms "cresc" and the hairpins are different. There may be an implied cancellation of one or the other so a hairpin may imply something like <> rather than just an increase in sound. Or maybe the crescendo only applies to some part (measure, phrase, bunch jointly flagged notes, etc.)

Based on the appearance of the music, the crescendos look a bit more sudden than how it's used now. The last example has "cresc > dim" which looks like a modern "f > p." It's clear that the terms are not synonyms for hairpins and that they are different enough to be used together.

I'll need some more historical context to go much further. Some things can be determined by logic and some by observation. It might be worthwhile for me to just go sightread the pieces and see what was intended.
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