double-stopped trills

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MichelRE
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double-stopped trills

Post by MichelRE »

I have a question for any people more familiar with string writing than I.
A passage for a solo violinist, double stopped, trills on each note (the accidentals are different for each trill).

From what I have read, and what I have seen in scores, it appears to be 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.
Would reading be more comfortable with both trills on the same side of the staff? or with one trill above and the other below the staff?

(the image below is a quick mock-up, so the spacing is a bit messy)

one violinist I spoke to would prefer both trills together on the same side of the staff, while another preferred having the trills placed on each side of the staff.
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benwiggy
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Re: double-stopped trills

Post by benwiggy »

FWIW, Gould does not seem to offer an opinion on this!
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OCTO
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Re: double-stopped trills

Post by OCTO »

If I, as a violinist, see this, I would definitely prefer the first version.
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MichelRE
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Re: double-stopped trills

Post by MichelRE »

thank-you Octo.

Ben, I had checked in the Gould book, there is very fleeting mention of it, but it's very "six of one, half a dozen of the other".

I appreciate Octo's contribution here, but I may be forced to go the route of the 2nd example (the 6ths were changed to 3rds, and separating the trills by a whole staff's thickness made for awkward reading, the original material I am working with has the double-stops quite high above the staff.)
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John Ruggero
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Re: double-stopped trills

Post by John Ruggero »

I agree with OCTO. Here is the way one usually sees ledger line double trills:
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MichelRE
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Re: double-stopped trills

Post by MichelRE »

John, wouldn't one be best off avoiding placing the trill within the staff that way?
I've seen plenty of published scores with elements disappearing into the staff this way, often times to the detriment of clarity.
my main worry would be that the accidentals with the trills could be rendered difficult to read or poorly placed in relation to the staff lines.
MichelRE
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Re: double-stopped trills

Post by MichelRE »

Would the following be clear, then?

would I be better raising the lower trills in the first two measures a bit? (the example you posted had stems, mine doesn't get stems until the 3rd measure)
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OCTO
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Re: double-stopped trills

Post by OCTO »

MichelRE wrote: 09 Aug 2021, 05:29 John, wouldn't one be best off avoiding placing the trill within the staff that way?
I've seen plenty of published scores with elements disappearing into the staff this way, often times to the detriment of clarity.
my main worry would be that the accidentals with the trills could be rendered difficult to read or poorly placed in relation to the staff lines.
It is nothing wrong to have it placed inside of the staff, but make some fine tuning in order to get the best possible display.
The accidental shape is the most important for the performance here, so I would definitely try to make just these as clear and visible as possible. Place these as they would regularly appear "on the staff".

The trill line is the least important, but I see that you have used just these in order to justify the placement. Remember that you don't need the wavy line in all these examples you provided, and they are only needed in the case you tie notes (=wavy lines follow slurs).
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John Ruggero
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Re: double-stopped trills

Post by John Ruggero »

I again agree with OCTO on all points. The accidentals for your trills look a little low to me (and actually a little too large) in relation to the tr symbol. Centering them with the trill line would solve the placement issue that OCTO mentioned.

In terms of priority, one would think that placing articulations so that they clearly apply to the relevant notes takes precedence over keeping them off the staff.
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MichelRE
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Re: double-stopped trills

Post by MichelRE »

thank-you both for your time and comments.
I'll try to adjust placement and element size.

If I'm understanding correctly, you would probably leave out the wavy lines entirely since there are no tied notes in this instance?
I think my reflex as that there is so much going on in the orchestra part (horizontally speaking... as in the orchestra part makes for very wide measures), that I felt using the wavy lines in the solo part (in the score itself) was justified.
So I guess I could leave out the wavy lines in the actual extracted solo part?

I HAD noticed that my trill symbol was considerably smaller than that posted in John's example, and the accidentals ARE quite a bit larger than a normal accidental in the score would be.
Since these are "smart shapes" in Finale, I will have a lot of tweaking to do to get size and vertical placement correct.
however, if I remove the wavy line element, that will allow me to simply use an articulation trill+accidental, which I think is easier to get right.
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