Notating a bar

Have your scores reviewed by other users. Comment on old and new published scores and on publishers.
MalteM
Posts: 67
Joined: 07 Aug 2018, 18:26

Re: Notating a bar

Post by MalteM »

Maybe it’s not 100% clear for everyone but I think that like for fingerings in most cases the distribution of notes onto the hands should be decided by the pianist or the editor, not by the composer. In simple cases like this one, there is a “default” distribution every skilled pianist will use without any indications by the editor or composer.

There are cases where the composer makes such decisions which are against any “default” distribution/fingerings for a musical reason. For example there is some weird 4-over-3 fingering in (the first? of) Schumann’s Abegg variations and the hand distribution in the second of Webern’s Variations is very unintuitive. But even in that case, distribution is done by using the two staves instead of hand markings (hooks/m.g./m.s./m.d./l.h./r.h./…).

Edit: I found the Schumann example. It’s 2 over 3 in the third variation, see attached image from Clara Schumann’s edition.
Attachments
Bildschirmfoto von 2021-12-08 19-28-16.png
Bildschirmfoto von 2021-12-08 19-28-16.png (39.3 KiB) Viewed 10534 times
User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 2453
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Notating a bar

Post by John Ruggero »

It is true that a composer who is not a fine pianist might well need the help of an editor or a better pianist in matters of note distribution and fingering.

But in my experience, the note distribution in piano music written by the finest composers (=great musical thinker) who were also fine pianists is almost always the best distribution. The reason is that they didn't compose music and then fit it to the hands of a pianist. The composition and the act of performing it were conceived organically.

So Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven never made a misstep in terms of note distribution in their solo piano music that I am aware of, and the music is really inconceivable in any other distribution. The same is true of the piano music of Scarlatti, Schubert, Chopin, Schumann, Brahms etc. (I omit J. S. Bach because we cannot be completely sure of the note distribution in his music.) And when pianists think that such a composer made an error in this matter, it is almost always user error and the change makes things worse rather than better.

Fingering is a slightly different story because pianists will always differ in that regard. However, when a very fine composer puts in fingering, it signals that something unusual is happening musically that may not be apparent in the notation, or as help for a brand-new figuration whose fingering is not obvious. Schumann's original fingering in Abegg is just fine for my hands. The one case you mention brings out the accented note and avoids a thumb crossing. It works well if the hand is oriented appropriately. Clara's fingering 121235 would seem to be the only other fingering possible. Obviously, Robert was well-aware of the other fingering, but chose the more unusual one. That should give one pause for thought.
M1 Mac mini (OS 12.4), Dorico, Finale 25.5, GPO 4, Affinity Publisher 2, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard maestro

http://www.cantilenapress.com
Schonbergian
Posts: 252
Joined: 03 Feb 2017, 02:25
Location: Toronto

Re: Notating a bar

Post by Schonbergian »

But in my experience, the note distribution in piano music written by the finest composers (=great musical thinker) who were also fine pianists is almost always the best distribution. The reason is that they didn't compose music and then fit it to the hands of a pianist. The composition and the act of performing it were conceived organically.
As a counterpoint, in the organ music of Widor and Vierne (who were the top virtuosos of their day and fine musical thinkers), one very often needs to redistribute notes between the hands because what is written is literally unplayable.
User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 2453
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Notating a bar

Post by John Ruggero »

That is very interesting, Schonbergian. Could you provide a few examples?
I was thinking of providing examples of some places in the standard piano repertoire where many pianists redistribute notes inadvisably.
M1 Mac mini (OS 12.4), Dorico, Finale 25.5, GPO 4, Affinity Publisher 2, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard maestro

http://www.cantilenapress.com
Schonbergian
Posts: 252
Joined: 03 Feb 2017, 02:25
Location: Toronto

Re: Notating a bar

Post by Schonbergian »

Widor, Symphonie No. 7:

Image
Image

If played as written, the passage is practically impossible, let alone playable with any sense of legato. Divided intuitively, it is straightforward.
Schonbergian
Posts: 252
Joined: 03 Feb 2017, 02:25
Location: Toronto

Re: Notating a bar

Post by Schonbergian »

Vierne, Pieces de fantaisie - Cathédrales:
Image
Anders Hedelin
Posts: 274
Joined: 16 Aug 2017, 16:36
Location: Sweden

Re: Notating a bar

Post by Anders Hedelin »

I'm not an organist myself, but could it be that organ players are more accustomed to redistribute notes between the hands than pianists? In your first example it seems obvious that the left hand should take some notes around bar 7. In the second the left hand would likely take some notes around bar 9. Possibly pianists are more sensitive about this kind of redistribution.
Finale 26, 27 on Windows 10
User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 2453
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Notating a bar

Post by John Ruggero »

Thanks, Schonbergian. I looked through both complete compositions and notice that most of the music is distributed between the hands and staves in an exact manner and and masterfully so. But sometimes where the music becomes more "contrapuntal" the player is expected to revert to the Baroque convention where the middle voices are to be swapped between the hands as necessary. This was also the case in the Classic period when the composer is writing in a neo-Baroque style, for example, the fugues in Beethoven's piano sonatas.

They evidently wanted to maintain a voice all on one staff if possible for continuity but preferred not to use extraneous symbols or hooks to show where notes are played by the other hand. (But not always. Beethoven did actually resort to m.s. and m.d. in his fugues in op. 106 and 110.) So this would constitute an apparently exceptional case in that the division of the middle voice notes would seem to be left up to the player in imitative music, as in the works of J. S. Bach. In actual practice, the division is often obvious because the distances between the notes and other factors that the composer could rely on to signal the hand division.

In the case of your first example, I would actually play the middle voice of the first system entirely with the right hand because it feels more natural to me as a lower right hand part. This requires some finger interchanging, but that is par for the course. I did test it with the organ stop on my keyboard to check the legato and all seemed well.

In the second system of the first example I would play the last three notes of the tenor part with the left hand as obviously implied by the last note which cannot be played by the right hand, an instance of the kind of signaling I mentioned.

I myself would also play the Vierne example exactly as written since again the middle voice feels more like a lower right hand part to me and dislike swapping notes back and forth unless absolutely necessary.

I suspect both composers didn't have a small hands and could handle the intervals. But surely they would have not objected to a little left hand help if the performer requires it. That indeed is something that composers don't indicate but rely on players to work out for themselves.

However, there are certainly other places in both compositions where it is literally impossible, as you said, to play unless the middle voice tones are taken by the other hand. This must be understood without the help of specific directions to that effect simply because the intervals are too great to be played by one hand or because of fluency or legato.

So I would not view this as composers of the past throwing up their hands and saying "play it any way you like." They knew exactly how they wanted it to be divided between the hands, preferred that it be played that way if possible, and felt it was obvious from the notation itself without the use of extraneous signs.

I think that we should be more explicit now, however. But in the original example, my hooks were probably superfluous. That doesn't mean however, that the hand division itself is up for grabs. The composer knows exactly how he wants it to be played and the notation should show that.
M1 Mac mini (OS 12.4), Dorico, Finale 25.5, GPO 4, Affinity Publisher 2, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard maestro

http://www.cantilenapress.com
Post Reply