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Right to left music

Posted: 23 Jul 2022, 11:01
by benwiggy
Shamelessly stolen from Twitter, but I saw this. It's from the hymnal in St George's Anglican Cathedral in Jerusalem.
FYQei0PXkAAaWit.jpeg
FYQei0PXkAAaWit.jpeg (340.95 KiB) Viewed 564 times
I wonder what software they used for that!

I've seen people suggest using Finale, by turning the page upside down, and using upside-down symbols!

Re: Right to left music

Posted: 23 Jul 2022, 16:06
by MichelRE
weird how the treble and bass clefs are in the right direction (wrong for that particular music, but right for regular left-to-right notation) except for the two dots on the bass clef.

Re: Right to left music

Posted: 23 Jul 2022, 16:36
by hawkin
benwiggy wrote:
23 Jul 2022, 11:01
I wonder what software they used for that!

I've seen people suggest using Finale, by turning the page upside down, and using upside-down symbols!
This looks more like plate engraving than digital engraving. Achieving this wouldn't be that hard since the engraver would only need to flip some of the symbols.

Software-wise, I remember lilypond can also produce 'flipped' music like this.

Re: Right to left music

Posted: 23 Jul 2022, 17:12
by benwiggy
I've got a working facsimile. Essentially, I created custom 'mirror' noteheads, and switch the stem positions. Then I exported to a graphics editor, and flipped the whole thing.
Then flipped clefs, accidentals and quaver flags back again!
image.jpeg
image.jpeg (90.31 KiB) Viewed 541 times
Didn't notice the F clefs dots, though! Good spot.

Re: Right to left music

Posted: 23 Jul 2022, 19:08
by John Ruggero
The flipped dots on the bass clef in the original don't make sense, since the dots represent the two cross bars on the letter F, which are on the right side of the symbol and they aren't showing either clef in mirror image.

Re: Right to left music

Posted: 24 Jul 2022, 09:01
by benwiggy
I guess there will inevitably be compromises using symbols designed for LTR the other way round.

Re: Right to left music

Posted: 25 Jul 2022, 11:39
by Schneider
Hi John,
John Ruggero wrote:
23 Jul 2022, 19:08
The flipped dots on the bass clef in the original don't make sense, since the dots represent the two cross bars on the letter F, which are on the right side of the symbol and they aren't showing either clef in mirror image.
Yes, but it is the traditional way to use the F clef for Arabic -- and Hebrew AFAIK -- chants.
See also : https://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=903.
Cheers,
Pierre

Re: Right to left music

Posted: 25 Jul 2022, 14:11
by John Ruggero
Schneider wrote:
25 Jul 2022, 11:39
Hi John,
John Ruggero wrote:
23 Jul 2022, 19:08
The flipped dots on the bass clef in the original don't make sense, since the dots represent the two cross bars on the letter F, which are on the right side of the symbol and they aren't showing either clef in mirror image.
Yes, but it is the traditional way to use the F clef for Arabic -- and Hebrew AFAIK -- chants.
See also : https://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=903.
Cheers,
Pierre
That's interesting. But whoever originated this tradition doesn't seem to have understood the bass clef symbol and thought the "cross bars" were like prolongation dots, which deserve to be on the left side of the notes in this case. Nor does it make sense for the bass clef to be to be in partial mirror image and the treble clef not at all.

Re: Right to left music

Posted: 30 Jul 2022, 20:11
by OCTO
hawkin wrote:
23 Jul 2022, 16:36
benwiggy wrote:
23 Jul 2022, 11:01
I wonder what software they used for that!

I've seen people suggest using Finale, by turning the page upside down, and using upside-down symbols!
This looks more like plate engraving than digital engraving. Achieving this wouldn't be that hard since the engraver would only need to flip some of the symbols.

Software-wise, I remember lilypond can also produce 'flipped' music like this.
I would say the same. It looks as manually done, without software.