how to show dotted rest

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JJP
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Re: how to show dotted rest

Post by JJP »

John Ruggero wrote: 20 Mar 2023, 21:39 I am guessing that you would accept what the composer requested from Anders IF there were another rest that followed, but not otherwise. Is that correct? I must admit that what the composer requested does not bother me as much as it would in 6/8 or 3/4 meter, for some reason. Maybe because of the less common meter and extended beams.
Without being dogmatic about it, I could probably live with that. I think I could also tolerate what Ander’s composer requested with the beaming, but it feels cumbersome.

However, let’s be honest. The time signature 12/16 itself is cumbersome. We are dealing with a lot of visual noise with all those flags, which leaves us trying to decide what is the least offensive. If I were the composer or arranger, I’d be looking for ways to avoid writing a 16th followed by two 16th rests. Perhaps something with a staccato dot. In all honesty, I’d really be looking for a way to completely avoid that time signature, but perhaps that’s not possible in context.

I must admit that I do break the combination rule in certain situations with 16ths, again with an eye towards making the beat groupings clear, because of all the visual complexity. One example is a 16th followed by a dotted 8th in 4/4, 3/4, etc. This is fairly common (perhaps to the point of being idiomatic) and is easier to read than other options in most cases because it makes the beat groupings clear. (I’m not at my computer, otherwise I would give an example.)

EDIT: I must add that I have strong dislike for the dotted quarter at the end of the bar from Ander’s example. Because it appears we are dealing with 3-note groupings, I want to see two dotted 8ths there. It may make the first part of the bar easier to read because it reinforces the underlying pulse of the bar. However, I’m also giving an opinion without context, so take that as you will!
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John Ruggero
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Re: how to show dotted rest

Post by John Ruggero »

I agree on all counts, JJP. The dotted quarter rest bothered me too. It's perfectly correct, yet begging for misunderstanding if in a single voice instrumental part. Keyboard music might be different (see example below). And yes, a staccato eighth note-16th rest combination would be much friendlier.

Why a composer would use 12/16 instead of 12/8 is an interesting topic on its own. Some have tied it to tempo in Baroque and Classical music. Some of it is tradition, and some of it may be psychology. There is no pressing reason that Bach would have written this gigue in 12/16, but I know that I would react differently to it in 12/8. Here is the gigue from English Suite no. 6. One notes the studious absence of two sixteenth rests in a row anywhere in the piece:
Bach Chromatic Gigue.png
Bach Chromatic Gigue.png (206.2 KiB) Viewed 3527 times
Last edited by John Ruggero on 21 Mar 2023, 17:18, edited 1 time in total.
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John Ruggero
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Re: how to show dotted rest

Post by John Ruggero »

Unfortunately, engravers have not always made good decisions based on readability. Showing a half measure of 6/8 as a dotted quarter rest seems to me to be a no-brainer. Clean, clear and uncluttered. Yet engravers have broken composer's dotted quarter rests into quarter rest + eighth rests for a very long time which leads to forests if rests like this from the Schenker edition of Beethoven's op. 57:
op 57.1 broken rests.png
op 57.1 broken rests.png (251.8 KiB) Viewed 3516 times
Original notation:
op 57.1 original.png
op 57.1 original.png (134.38 KiB) Viewed 3516 times
So perhaps we should take some of the standard "rules" with a grain of salt.
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Anders Hedelin
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Re: how to show dotted rest

Post by Anders Hedelin »

John Ruggero wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 16:19 So perhaps we should take some of the standard "rules" with a grain of salt.
I take it you refer to the 'forest of rests' in Schenker's example? Forbidding dotted rests seems rather stiffly old-fashioned to me, so I'm with you there.

I'm not in the least bothered by the combination of two beats of dotted eighth rests in 12/16 into a dotted quarter rest (as in examples above). Provided it's placed in the correct position in the meter, it's just analogous with combining two beats of eighth rests in 4/8 into a quarter, or two beats of quarter rests in 4/4 into a half. Objecting to that seems more like an idiosyncrasy to me.
Last edited by Anders Hedelin on 21 Mar 2023, 19:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: how to show dotted rest

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Anders Hedelin wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 18:23
John Ruggero wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 16:19 So perhaps we should take some of the standard "rules" with a grain of salt.
I take it you refer to the 'forest of rests' in Schenker's example? Forbidding dotted rests seems rather stiffly old-fashioned to me, so I agree with you there, John.
That Schenker "forest of rests" makes me want to go into fits of ranting! Today, anyone who thinks that was a good choice should be dragged out back and given a private lesson! :)

Our rules do change over time, often for quite practical reasons. ...At one point we thought it was better to not beam vocal music. Countless vocalists' lives have been made better since changing that rule!
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Re: how to show dotted rest

Post by Anders Hedelin »

JJP wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 18:36 Our rules do change over time, often for quite practical reasons.
True, of course. I hope we can agree upon this though: If you want to improve something in notational practise, it helps communicating about it if you know the traditional way you're abandoning. (BTW I don't doubt that you have this knowledge, JJP.)
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Re: how to show dotted rest

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Of course! That’s one of the things I enjoy about this delightful little community.
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Re: how to show dotted rest

Post by John Ruggero »

JJP wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 18:36 That Schenker "forest of rests" makes me want to go into fits of ranting! Today, anyone who thinks that was a good choice should be dragged out back and given a private lesson!
Maybe the lesson should be given in the woodshed :) The forest can also be seen at https://www.henle.de/us/detail/?Title=P ... nata%29_58

The newest Henle edition of op 57 is not yet available, so I don't know if they have finally seen the error or their ways. The newest Weiner Urtext does restore the original rests.
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Re: how to show dotted rest

Post by John Ruggero »

Anders Hedelin wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 18:54
JJP wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 18:36 Our rules do change over time, often for quite practical reasons.
True, of course. I hope we can agree upon this though: If you want to improve something in notational practise, it helps communicating about it if you know the traditional way you're abandoning. (BTW I don't doubt that you have this knowledge, JJP.)
This is what I took away from Arnstein: don't surprise the player, use only notation that can be grasped immediately, avoid verbal explanation, innovate only as a last resort and at great peril. The idea was to come up with notation that was impossible to misunderstand at first sight and required no second looks or questions. If something could be written two ways within standard practice, he picked the safer way to write it.
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Re: how to show dotted rest

Post by OCTO »

JJP wrote: 20 Mar 2023, 17:06 My understanding of rests, which goes beyond 6/8, is that it is preferred to combine the beginning of a beat grouping, but not the end. This is to preserve the quick identification of the location of beat groupings within a bar.
Exactly so.
The rests have to be counted (thus not played), and if the beat is obscured it is more difficult to get a real perception of the beat. The strong beats are important and they should not be obscured. These are: in 3/4 - the 1st; in 4/4 the 1st and 3rd (and so consequently all other time signatures be it compound, doubled, or cut). The orchestral musicians know well how important is to count the rests carefully, particularly if you need to count 30 measures.

- So for instance the time signature 12/16 is: quadruple by number of the beats and compound by the beat itself.
The four beats can be written as: :3d :3d :3d :3d , but :3d :3dr :4dr , and the beats itself divided into :2 :2 :2 but also :2 :2r :2r and not :2 :3r , however allowed: :3r :2

- Consequently the time signature 9/16 is: triple by number of the beats and compound by the beat itself.
The three beats are written as: :3d :3d :3d , but :3d :3dr :3dr , and the beats itself divided into :2 :2 :2 but also :2 :2r :2r and not :2 :3r , however allowed: :3r :2 , and allowed :4dr :3d

But I agree that the consensus is not 100% with the older scores.
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