Inquiry on the origin of ties

[NeeraWM]

I am writing the Critical Notes for an upcoming edition of a Piano Trio composed in 1851, even though I only have access to the 1874 source.
Whenever a couple of tied notes is found under a longer slur, regardless of whether the two notes may be on opposite sides of a barline or not, the tie is not written. It is musically evident that the tie should be there — not only but also corresponding because passages in the piano part where slurs are either shorts or absent show the tie instead.

In my experience with XIX century music, I've found this practice to be wildly widespread, at least in Germany, though I am not able to make general assumptions about its global usage.

Do you know more about this practice? When did it start and when did it end? For the latter, I believe sometime at the end of XIX or beginning of XX century, but I have no idea for the former.
How widespread was it?

In this modern edition, I am adding solid-typeface ties whenever it is musically evident, but I am also adding a mention in the Critical Notes at the end for everyone who find protesting around a more entertaining activity!

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

[John Ruggero]

Interesting. Have never seen this in piano music of any period. Could this be a strictly string and wind thing? But I've never seen it in string and wind music either. Plenty of missing slurs and ties, but they are errors, not a regular practice. Could you provide examples from IMSLP? I looked a little at cello music by Raff and Reinecke but I'm not seeing it.

[NeeraWM]

Here are a few direct examples from this piece, but I could provide plenty given enough time:

Violin Part:

Screenshot 2024-09-19 at 10.00.29.png (712.32 KiB) Viewed 16548 times

Cello Part:

Screenshot 2024-09-19 at 09.59.30.png (261.84 KiB) Viewed 16548 times

The Piano part has no such issue whatsoever, so you may be right to assume it to be a strings-winds-only issue.

[Harpsichordmaker]

Seems as the engraver believes a repeated note can’t be done in a slurred phrase, i.e. a repeated note breaks any slur. So if the two notes are under a slur, they “obviously” can’t be played both, thus the tie is non-necessary.

This *may* be true for flutes, where of course you can’t play two adjacent same notes within a single breath, I assume if you don’t break the breath with a tongue stop (I think it’s called like that in English but am not sure. In Italian is “colpo di lingua”).
On the other hand, violins can play all legato and simply change bow direction on the second note and still stay in legato style.

However, my hypothesis doesn’t explain why the piano part doesn’t show the same lack of ties (but you said in piano part spurs are short or absent, so this could be an explanation).
Seems a pretty irrational way of notating, I’d not preserve it in a scholarly edition, not even talking about practical editions, so I fully agree with your decision.
Sorry for not being able to answer your question about the historical spread of such way of notating.

[NeeraWM]

Here is an example in the piano of a very similar passage:

Screenshot 2024-09-19 at 11.19.07.png (935.2 KiB) Viewed 16501 times

The composer, a cellist with great experience on the piano, though, was quite precise in his notation, so I am not sure why this difference was used, but—at least in the German Cello School—it was quite consistent.

[John Ruggero]

I guess it was an attempt (a misguided one, in my opinion) to simplify the notation in situations where the two notes are automatically "tied" when the bow does not change direction. It assumes that they are using slurs very strictly to show the bowing. One might find the practice explained in string method books of that time and place.

[MichelRE]

I find it odd (without seeing more of the excerpt in question) that the slur in the violin part (1st example you posted) stops at the A, the first time the pattern is played, but extends to the staccato G the 2nd time the pattern is played. To me, that isn't particularly precise notation.

Besides, un-tied notes, taken in one bow, WILL sound like two notes, and not like one single tied note.
Again, the notation lacks a great deal of precision.
the notational anomaly would also require a completely different approach to string playing technique.

[Fred G. Unn]

Are any manuscripts by that composer available? I'd be curious if that practice is reflected in the manuscripts as well, or if it is a "house style" of the publisher/engraver. Do other publications from the publisher around the same time period use that practice?

[NeeraWM]

The composer's autograph is not available and his writing is usually correct, that is he includes ties.
The editor is FEC Leuckart, Leipzig.
From the other editions I have of this editor, it seems like it was a choice. Also Breitkopf used this around 1830 in some cello scores I have.
Perhaps a German thing?

[Fred G. Unn]

A bit off topic for your actual query, but the title of the thread got me wondering when ties were first used. For anyone curious, Rastall's book says the following:

ties.jpg (539.08 KiB) Viewed 15764 times