Piano Fingering with Fermata

[eheilner]

Dorico places the fingering closer to the note and the fermata above. This looks funny to my eyes, but maybe this is standard. Thoughts?

Screenshot 2025-07-18 at 15.32.13.png (8.38 KiB) Viewed 212 times

[John Ruggero]

This is always a sticky case because both symbols want to be close to the notes. So it's done in various ways, all somewhat unsatisfactory.

Yours looks funny because both symbols are too far from the note head. You might put the number closer to the top staff line to get both symbols closer. Or place the number to the left of the note head. Or place the number over the fermata.

Incidentally, is your finger number a little taller than one space, not including the staff lines? If so, you might reduce it a little. Also, the traditional finger numbers are small versions of the font used for numbers used for the time signatures. Their very heavy appearance makes them easier to read and stand out more when placed on the staff. I use the Maestro Times Signature numbers at a 50% reduction.

fingering and fermata.png (31.17 KiB) Viewed 203 times

[MichelRE]

I much prefer John's 1st version, with the fingering to one side. to me it seems to most standard as far as piano writing goes.

[John Ruggero]

Here are some examples, all taken from Beethoven's sonata op. 31 no 3, which is filled with fermatas:

Casella 1.png (195.81 KiB) Viewed 169 times

Casella 2.png (57.6 KiB) Viewed 169 times

Schenker 1.png (126.39 KiB) Viewed 169 times

Schenker 2.png (38.51 KiB) Viewed 169 times

Schenker 3.png (36.19 KiB) Viewed 169 times

Peters 1.png (124.41 KiB) Viewed 169 times

Peters 2.png (35.1 KiB) Viewed 169 times

Arrau.png (109.47 KiB) Viewed 169 times

Schnabel.png (131.62 KiB) Viewed 169 times

[eheilner]

This is always a sticky case because both symbols want to be close to the notes. So it's done in various ways, all somewhat unsatisfactory.

John - Thank you so much for your detailed and helpful responses. I see your postings out on the Dorico group and am impressed with the depth and breath of your knowledge. Meanwhile - it's funny - just before I saw your latest response I was just looking through some old books I have and (as your examples illustrate) it seems like the general approach was to use mostly over or under the notes - but there are scattered situations where the fingering is put next to the note inside the staff. I'll include an example at the bottom.

In my workflow as a composer I try to spend most of my time working on the music itself - so unless there is a compelling reason I stick to whatever defaults Dorico uses for the notation. But this is the first time I've ever included fingering in any of my scores (I'm dipping my toes in the self publishing world) so I want to get things reasonably correct - but without letting the notation cart drive the musical horse (bad metaphors here).

So I'm going to keep putting the fingering on top (or bottom) - but I will manually tweak that example to move the fermata closer to the note.

FWIW I'll be posting this as an NFR on Dorico group.

Fingering - 1.jpg (1018.83 KiB) Viewed 124 times

[John Ruggero]

Thank you very much for your compliment, ehellner. That's very kind. I just saw your latest post on this subject and the issue with the ties over at Dorico Forum.

On this same subject, things get really interesting when along with fingering, a third element, like a trill, appears over the note along with the fermata. Then the trill fingering might be placed below the note (Beethoven op 101, Schenker edition):

op 101.png (50.59 KiB) Viewed 78 times

But that wasn't possible here in op. 106:

op 106.png (72.22 KiB) Viewed 78 times

Incidentally, does anyone think Beethoven was quoting himself?