Clef change at a repeat?

[LSL2026]

Piano.

mm. 1-4 both staves in Treble, 4 bars repeated with standard repeat bar.

bar 5, lower staff changes to Bass Clef.

4 bars later it changes back to Treble Clef.

There’s a small courtesy clef at the end of bar 8 as one would expect.

My brain is telling me there should also be a courtesy clef at the end of bar 4, in parentheses, to show that the 2nd time through, you’ll be changing to Bass Clef.

MuseScore doesn’t want to do it, and I think I know why - it would be that if it changed to Bass before the repeat, and was going back to Treble on the repeat, we’d have a Treble in parentheses.

What’s the convention here? Is it only “if you’ve changed clef and the repeat needs to go back to what it started as”?

Or can a courtesy be “a heads up for the next section after the repeat like as if there were no repeat bars?

Or does it require 1st and 2nd endings?

If that’s the case I’m just going to be discourteous and leave it like how you see in the image. It’s just an example (Bernie, please don’t throw me off the rooftop) so it’s no big deal, but it’s amazing how the things you think you know aren’t always what you think you know!!!

BONUS QUESTION: Is this a reasonable use of 8/8? I have strong opinions on 8/8 and this is supposed to be an example of where, while it could be 4/4 (especially in the first 4 bars) 8/8 might be an acceptable choice since the majority of the piece (which you can’t see the rest here) is a more obvious, consistent 3+3+2 grouping.

Screenshot 2026-07-16 at 1.44.26 AM.png (161.58 KiB) Viewed 2059 times

[John Ruggero]

As you expected, often a small clef is added before the repeat sign if the repeat sign is at the end of a line, as in your example. The big clef at the beginning of that system would be considered to cancel it, the first time through.

Dorico does the following at the end of a line, however, which is logical, but not often seen in standard engraving:

Dorico.png (18.99 KiB) Viewed 2012 times

If the repeat sign is in the middle of the system, the small clef is generally placed after the repeat sign and within the first measure of what follows. Dorico at first placed it after the repeat sign and followed by another bar line and thus within its own little "measure", but I think there is now an option to avoid that. It is not standard and confusing to many.

I think that 8/8 is just fine. Simple is best in my opinion.

[LSL2026]

Dorico does the following at the end of a line, however, which is logical, but not often seen in standard engraving:

That’s interesting. Now that I see it, I don’t think I’ve ever seen it before.

Basically, we end up with a clef change on a new system without a cautionary, because of the repeat.

[John Ruggero]

Just to clarify. I think that standard practice is to supply a small clef at the end of the system that would pertain to the next line just as if the repeat mark were not there. So Musescore is not doing this correctly. You need a small clef there.

But perhaps others will disagree.

[LSL2026]

Just to clarify. I think that standard practice is to supply a small clef at the end of the system that would pertain to the next line just as if the repeat mark were not there. So Musescore is not doing this correctly. You need a small clef there.

But perhaps others will disagree.

See, that’s what my gut instinct is telling me too…

I think my issue is going to be that while I can add a clef as a symbol, I may not be able to adjust the font size of that symbol or make it cue-size or anything.

I may mess around with it out of curiosity today.

[LSL2026]

You need a small clef there.

This is what I came up with.

I had to use Opus font to choose the symbol “as text” - that is shift+? to get the bass clef and just adjust the font to get it the same size as the default smaller size one for Maestro.

For some reason the same keystroke doesn’t work when I choose the Maestro font…but it’s close enough for now as an experiment.

There IS some way in MuseScore to pick symbols in a particular font but the “inline text editor’s” symbols aren’t resizable.

I used some other text font to get the parentheses to look as similar in style as the other courtesy accidentals. I just grabbed the first one that fit the bill but I may have something better. And of course I had to adjust the font size - even the spaces to get the distance right (or as good as I would for this experiment).

Both the clef and the parnetheses around it then had to be moved manually - there’s no easy way to “group” something like this, nor to intermix a symbol in one font with another in another font AND get their heights to line up correctly. So manually positioning each is the only thing to do.

Past experience with MuseScore is that every time you re-open the file the will re-position to the wrong place. Just tried it, and sure enough, they’ve moved (it doesn’t like the spaces within the font being a different size - I constantly have to go back and re-enter spaces before printing in some scores where I’ve intermixed fonts).

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[John Ruggero]

The parentheses are a nice touch and logical, but I don't think I've ever seen that in standard editions, just the small clef. I think you might find some examples in the Goldberg variations. This crops up a lot in sets of variations.

Formerly, one had use similar workarounds in Dorico for a few things involving repeat marks, but I think that is no longer necessary in most cases. There may also be some things involving ties and repeat marks that still need work. Repeat marks appear to be a difficult problem for software.

[Shinianqi]

I may hold a different opinion.

For the example LSL presented in the opening post, I would personally prefer not to add any courtesy clef. If one is considered necessary, I think Dorico's approach of placing it after the repeat sign is more reasonable.

My reasoning is that I prefer to look at this from a musical perspective. If a courtesy clef is placed before the repeat sign, it effectively suggests the clef after the repeat, which does not make much musical sense.

To use the Goldberg Variations mentioned by John as an example, the Henle edition is essentially handled in this way. If a courtesy clef were placed before the repeat sign, it would be indicating the original clef after the repeat rather than the clef at the beginning of the next system.

Variation 29.jpeg (260.94 KiB) Viewed 1881 times

This is even more true for repeat endings. If the first ending happens to be at the end of one system and the second ending begins at the start of the next, there is even less reason to add a courtesy clef, because those two measures have no musical connection at all.

Heartache_P1~2.jpeg (2.2 MiB) Viewed 1881 times

So I think the best approach is to consider the musical context itself. Dorico's solution may not be common, but I do think it is a good and reasonable one.

[John Ruggero]

Thanks, Shinlanqi. I shouldn't have said "incorrect" for MuseScore not to include the clef. It's just my preference and apparently also the OP. As you point out, its a gray area.

The Dorico solution is certainly logical and has a lot going for it (as long it is at the end of the staff) but up until now I don't think it is the standard way to handle it. At least I have never seen it from the major publishers of past or present. But maybe it will catch on.

Here is the New Bach Edition of the same spot. They supply the clef.

NBA.png (548.57 KiB) Viewed 1851 times

I just checked the Finale default and it does supply the clef inside the repeat mark:

Finale.png (42.61 KiB) Viewed 1851 times

I will go out on a limb and say that I don't think there is anyone who would place a clef at the end of a first ending that would apply to the second ending. That would be plain wrong.

[Shinianqi]

Thank you for your reply, John.

The Dorico solution is certainly logical and has a lot going for it (as long it is at the end of the staff) but up until now I don't think it is the standard way to handle it.

I completely agree that Dorico's default behavior for cases occurring in the middle of a system is, in my opinion, unacceptable. Fortunately, recent versions of Dorico finally allow time signatures, key signatures, and clefs (although clefs are not mentioned in the option, it does apply to them as well) to be placed after the repeat sign.

Dorico.jpg (297.65 KiB) Viewed 1844 times

At least I have never seen it from the major publishers of past or present. But maybe it will catch on.

The default behavior of notation software has long influenced the evolution of music notation, for better or for worse, and I imagine it will continue to do so in the future.

Here is the New Bach Edition of the same spot. They supply the clef.

...[png]

I just checked the Finale default and it does supply the clef inside the repeat mark:
...[png]

Thank you for providing those examples.
Different editors may have different views on this. Even after seeing examples where a courtesy clef is added, including the one you posted, I still hold the same opinion as before. This is because many of those examples, such as Finale's default behavior that you pointed out, do not strike me as something that was carefully considered from a software design perspective. Rather, they seem to be the result of applying the same handling used in other situations. In Finale, for example, a repeat sign is essentially treated as a type of barline rather than as a special symbol.

I will go out on a limb and say that I don't think there is anyone who would place a clef at the end of a first ending that would apply to the second ending. That would be plain wrong.

Yes, I completely agree. That was also part of what I was trying to express earlier.