Earliest use/History of Octave Transposing Clefs?

[John Ruggero]

In 1955, when I was 14, a generous (and rather grand) kinsman took me to Covent Garden for a performance of Verdi's Otello. We were sitting a few rows back in the centre of the stalls. As soon as the orchestra began with what seemed to me an overwhelming sound, I leapt to my feet with excitement. Afterwards, when my kinsman realized how engaged I'd been in the whole performance, he presented me with a copy of the full score. This was the first time I saw the ‘Ricordi clef’.

What a wonderful and moving story! Thanks, David.

[John Ruggero]

A bit of a joke to put into the thread:

Once upon a time, I was giving a lecture at the University of Chicago, in the Department of Music, for their whole composition class.  I was talking about a particular subject, I don't remember it now, when one of the students raised his hand and asked:
- "So, tell me, what is the source of your statement?"
I replied:
- "I am the source."

Very amusing, OCTO. I hope the comment got as big a laugh as it deserved.

[Fred G. Unn]

- "So, tell me, what is the source of your statement?"
I replied:
- "I am the source."

Having a bit of a laugh imagining you in a Samuel L. Jackson voice saying, "MF I am the source!"

[LSL2026]

Why do you think it is silly to see the transposition by only looking at the clef?

Because we end up with a ton of extra numerals above and below clefs which don't always look good on them, and aren't always easily discernible in print - easier to just put.

Plus we can already tell by looking at the key sig in most cases.

If it's a C score, it's no longer transposed, so it become more an artifact kind of like when a vocal part was originally in Alto Clef and they put that at the front to show it, but use a Treble for the music. Ok, tells us what it originally was, but really, we don't really need to know.

[LSL2026]

OK, David, so you stick to the historically first use of this kind of clefs. I wonder if the same clef for guitar music was the second, and the treble clef with a small 8 above for soprano and sopranino recorder was the third.

That would be my guess on the orders. But I don't look at recorder music very often - I have someone I can check with in a recorder consort to see what they're used to seeing.

But I don't even use them on Tenor parts in Treble clef - like Guitar, it's understood, and should really be the same for Piccolo, and other recorders.

[LSL2026]

I am not sure if the gutar uses it at all, I would say traditionally not.

Right, older Classical Guitar music doesn't use it - not until really the 1980s or so, and even then it's the less common.

In pop music with tablature, it became more common.

Now it gets used with Classical Guitar (which often includes tablature as well now and has adopted the pop music approach) and is more widespread than ever.

[LSL2026]

he presented me with a copy of the full score. This was the first time I saw the ‘Ricordi clef’.

AWESOME!!!

[Magnus Johansson]

Why do you think it is silly to see the transposition by only looking at the clef?

Because we end up with a ton of extra numerals above and below clefs which don't always look good on them, and aren't always easily discernible in print - easier to just put.

I really do not see the ton: in a common symphony score: the clarinets, the horns, the trumpets and the contrabasses.

Plus we can already tell by looking at the key sig in most cases.

But the direction of transposition is not visible in the key signature.

If it's a C score, it's no longer transposed, so it become more an artifact kind of like when a vocal part was originally in Alto Clef and they put that at the front to show it, but use a Treble for the music. Ok, tells us what it originally was, but really, we don't really need to know.

In a C score only 8 and 15 are used, and only for the extreme range instruments.

[Magnus Johansson]

I am not sure if the gutar uses it at all, I would say traditionally not.

Right, older Classical Guitar music doesn't use it - not until really the 1980s or so, and even then it's the less common.

In pop music with tablature, it became more common.

Now it gets used with Classical Guitar (which often includes tablature as well now and has adopted the pop music approach) and is more widespread than ever.

I shall try contacting Göran Söllscher and hopefully see what he, as a former student of Per-Olof Johnson, has to say about the use of the treble clef ottava bassa for guitar.

[Magnus Johansson]

Göran Söllscher replied that he knows that Per-Olof Johnson was careful putting the 8 below the treble clef when writing for guitar, but Göran didn't know who was first with this in guitar music. He suggested to contact Gunnar Hansson. I will try to do that. I wrote to Mats Bergström also; let's see if he can tell us more.