Earliest use/History of Octave Transposing Clefs?

[dircknagy]

So in 1957, Schott was not using the octave clef for guitar in full scores, but by 1964, they were.

Interestingly enough, they did not use octave clef for bass or piccolo in either.

Schott 1957.jpg (562.6 KiB) Viewed 114 times

Schott 1964.jpg (573.39 KiB) Viewed 114 times

[Magnus Johansson]

So in 1957, Schott was not using the octave clef for guitar in full scores, but by 1964, they were.

Interestingly enough, they did not use octave clef for bass or piccolo in either.

Schott 1957.jpg

Schott 1964.jpg

Thanks, Dirck, for the examples. I believe the octave clefs for piccolo and contrabass came later than the "guitar clef"; Kurt Stone is an early advocate.

[LSL2026]

Some composers came up with different ideas regarding the clef(s) for guitar

https://ks15.imslp.org/files/imglnks/us ... Pleyel.pdf

I'm gonna give that YIKES!!!

TBH, I started on Piano, and I learned guitar by taking what I knew from piano and figuring out where everything was on guitar.

So I actually read grand staff better than single treble staff for guitar for a LONG time. In fact, I hate to admit it, but it wasn't really until after college when I really started sight-reading more for guitar that I really got better at reading just treble for guitar.

So I mean, the grand staff does make sense to me, and many others will bring it up, but the Alto clef...nah, let the violists have something they can call their own

[Mr_Incognito]

Some composers came up with different ideas regarding the clef(s) for guitar

https://ks15.imslp.org/files/imglnks/us ... Pleyel.pdf

I'm gonna give that YIKES!!!

TBH, I started on Piano, and I learned guitar by taking what I knew from piano and figuring out where everything was on guitar.

So I actually read grand staff better than single treble staff for guitar for a LONG time. In fact, I hate to admit it, but it wasn't really until after college when I really started sight-reading more for guitar that I really got better at reading just treble for guitar.

So I mean, the grand staff does make sense to me, and many others will bring it up, but the Alto clef...nah, let the violists have something they can call their own

Noticed parallel 8 in the 6th system, measure 2-3?

[OCTO]

So in 1957, Schott was not using the octave clef for guitar in full scores, but by 1964, they were.

Interestingly enough, they did not use octave clef for bass or piccolo in either.

Schott 1957.jpg

Schott 1964.jpg

p.s.  Do you know that Rodrigo was blind from the age of three?  And he managed not only to master an instrument, but also to learn how to compose and orchestrate.  He used his own Braille system for music notation.  Just a reminder for those who complain that can't compose without the newest "dorico," plenty of VSTs, and a super-large screen.

He died actually recently, in 1999.

[Magnus Johansson]

So in 1957, Schott was not using the octave clef for guitar in full scores, but by 1964, they were.

Interestingly enough, they did not use octave clef for bass or piccolo in either.

Schott 1957.jpg

Schott 1964.jpg

Since you are a guitarist, Dirck, have you read or have access to Jakob Ortner's Kurzgefaßte Gitarre-Schule? I ask because Jakob Ortner was Karl Scheit's teacher so perhaps we can trace the guitar clef backwards from Karl Scheit.

[dircknagy]

...
Since you are a guitarist, Dirck, have you read or have access to Jakob Ortner's Kurzgefaßte Gitarre-Schule? I ask because Jakob Ortner was Karl Scheit's teacher so perhaps we can trace the guitar clef backwards from Karl Scheit.

I have never seen it. I will look this week at the university library where i work; i could probably order a copy from somewhere.

Scheit's student Konrad Ragossnig used the clef. Schott was also his publisher, BTW.

[Schonbergian]

I think the clef makes sense only in choral scores where soprano, alto, and tenor are all written in the treble clef (as opposed to soprano, alto, and treble clefs), only because it helps the tenor staff to stand out more clearly amid a sea of treble clefs. In an orchestral context where other clefs are common, it has no such advantage, and is simply redundant. No tenor would sing the notes "at pitch" if the octave clef were not provided, just as a contrabassist or piccoloist would not, so the clef has no unique musical function.

[dircknagy]

I think the clef makes sense only in choral scores where soprano, alto, and tenor are all written in the treble clef (as opposed to soprano, alto, and treble clefs), only because it helps the tenor staff to stand out more clearly amid a sea of treble clefs. In an orchestral context where other clefs are common, it has no such advantage, and is simply redundant. No tenor would sing the notes "at pitch" if the octave clef were not provided, just as a contrabassist or piccoloist would not, so the clef has no unique musical function.

I agree it is redundant, but it is such a small thing.

Another reason for their use might be that nowadays, many scores are checked by midi playback. An example like this, where Flute 2 switches to Piccolo, will not play back correctly.

Rodrigo Piccolo.jpg (274.52 KiB) Viewed 36 times

[Magnus Johansson]

I think the clef makes sense only in choral scores where soprano, alto, and tenor are all written in the treble clef (as opposed to soprano, alto, and treble clefs), only because it helps the tenor staff to stand out more clearly amid a sea of treble clefs.

There are other cases as well where there are a lot of treble clefs, like in an Orff ensemble, and it is, to quote Abdy Williams once again, "an excellent guide to the eye of the reader".

In an orchestral context where other clefs are common, it has no such advantage, and is simply redundant.

There are instances also in orchestral contexts where treble clefs gather.

No tenor would sing the notes "at pitch" if the octave clef were not provided, just as a contrabassist or piccoloist would not, so the clef has no unique musical function.

The tenors in a professional choir here in Sweden are known for making fun of tenor parts in treble clef by trying to sing the actual notes in them.