Right to left music

Have your scores reviewed by other users. Comment on old and new published scores and on publishers.
Post Reply
benwiggy
Posts: 700
Joined: 11 Apr 2016, 19:42

Right to left music

Post by benwiggy »

Shamelessly stolen from Twitter, but I saw this. It's from the hymnal in St George's Anglican Cathedral in Jerusalem.
FYQei0PXkAAaWit.jpeg
FYQei0PXkAAaWit.jpeg (340.95 KiB) Viewed 562 times
I wonder what software they used for that!

I've seen people suggest using Finale, by turning the page upside down, and using upside-down symbols!

MichelRE
Posts: 74
Joined: 07 Aug 2021, 17:11

Re: Right to left music

Post by MichelRE »

weird how the treble and bass clefs are in the right direction (wrong for that particular music, but right for regular left-to-right notation) except for the two dots on the bass clef.

hawkin
Posts: 1
Joined: 23 Jul 2022, 16:22

Re: Right to left music

Post by hawkin »

benwiggy wrote:
23 Jul 2022, 11:01
I wonder what software they used for that!

I've seen people suggest using Finale, by turning the page upside down, and using upside-down symbols!
This looks more like plate engraving than digital engraving. Achieving this wouldn't be that hard since the engraver would only need to flip some of the symbols.

Software-wise, I remember lilypond can also produce 'flipped' music like this.
Last edited by hawkin on 24 Jul 2022, 03:02, edited 1 time in total.

benwiggy
Posts: 700
Joined: 11 Apr 2016, 19:42

Re: Right to left music

Post by benwiggy »

I've got a working facsimile. Essentially, I created custom 'mirror' noteheads, and switch the stem positions. Then I exported to a graphics editor, and flipped the whole thing.
Then flipped clefs, accidentals and quaver flags back again!
image.jpeg
image.jpeg (90.31 KiB) Viewed 539 times
Didn't notice the F clefs dots, though! Good spot.

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 2068
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Right to left music

Post by John Ruggero »

The flipped dots on the bass clef in the original don't make sense, since the dots represent the two cross bars on the letter F, which are on the right side of the symbol and they aren't showing either clef in mirror image.
2020 M1 Mac mini (OS 12.4), 2014 Mac mini (OS 10.12), Dual monitors, Finale 27 & 25.5, GPO 4, InDesign CS4, SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard maestro

http://www.cantilenapress.com

benwiggy
Posts: 700
Joined: 11 Apr 2016, 19:42

Re: Right to left music

Post by benwiggy »

I guess there will inevitably be compromises using symbols designed for LTR the other way round.

User avatar
Schneider
Posts: 111
Joined: 09 Oct 2015, 06:50
Location: Paris

Re: Right to left music

Post by Schneider »

Hi John,
John Ruggero wrote:
23 Jul 2022, 19:08
The flipped dots on the bass clef in the original don't make sense, since the dots represent the two cross bars on the letter F, which are on the right side of the symbol and they aren't showing either clef in mirror image.
Yes, but it is the traditional way to use the F clef for Arabic -- and Hebrew AFAIK -- chants.
See also : https://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=903.
Cheers,
Pierre

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 2068
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Right to left music

Post by John Ruggero »

Schneider wrote:
25 Jul 2022, 11:39
Hi John,
John Ruggero wrote:
23 Jul 2022, 19:08
The flipped dots on the bass clef in the original don't make sense, since the dots represent the two cross bars on the letter F, which are on the right side of the symbol and they aren't showing either clef in mirror image.
Yes, but it is the traditional way to use the F clef for Arabic -- and Hebrew AFAIK -- chants.
See also : https://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=903.
Cheers,
Pierre
That's interesting. But whoever originated this tradition doesn't seem to have understood the bass clef symbol and thought the "cross bars" were like prolongation dots, which deserve to be on the left side of the notes in this case. Nor does it make sense for the bass clef to be to be in partial mirror image and the treble clef not at all.
2020 M1 Mac mini (OS 12.4), 2014 Mac mini (OS 10.12), Dual monitors, Finale 27 & 25.5, GPO 4, InDesign CS4, SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard maestro

http://www.cantilenapress.com

User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 1606
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 06:52
Location: Sweden

Re: Right to left music

Post by OCTO »

hawkin wrote:
23 Jul 2022, 16:36
benwiggy wrote:
23 Jul 2022, 11:01
I wonder what software they used for that!

I've seen people suggest using Finale, by turning the page upside down, and using upside-down symbols!
This looks more like plate engraving than digital engraving. Achieving this wouldn't be that hard since the engraver would only need to flip some of the symbols.

Software-wise, I remember lilypond can also produce 'flipped' music like this.
I would say the same. It looks as manually done, without software.
Freelance Composer. Self-Publisher.
Finale 25.5 • Sibelius 2020.12• MuseScore 3 • Logic Pro X+ • Ableton Live 10+ • Digital Performer 9 /// MacOS Mojave (secondary in use systems: Fedora 35, Windows 10)

Post Reply