Ornaments in different languages

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NeeraWM
Posts: 160
Joined: 30 Nov 2021, 12:11

Ornaments in different languages

Post by NeeraWM »

Hello everyone,
I'm looking for a comprehensive resource on ornaments in all mainly used languages (English, German, Italian, French).
I'm hitting a roadblock when translating a book from German (which I don't speak) using Google Translate + Apple Translate to check + my intuition and knowledge on the topic.
Dolmetsch Online is kind of helping but not completely. A single page with a table, if it already exists, would be of great help!

Thanks!
Harpsichordmaker
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Joined: 10 Apr 2016, 08:19

Re: Ornaments in different languages

Post by Harpsichordmaker »

I have no suggestions of ornaments resources in different languages, but I am wondering. Speaking of baroque ornaments, I’d say most ornaments are kept in their original language: pralltriller, coulée de tierce, appoggiatura…
Some others are translated: mordente/mordent/mordant…

To make things more complicated, today we tend to name the ornaments the way the composer named them. For example, if dealing with a French composer as Couperin or D’Alembert, we may call tremblement the ornament we’d otherwise call trill.
And so on.
I am only talking about baroque.

Sorry for not being of help.
May I suggest you try ChatGPT for your translations. I’ve found it generally much better than google Translate (don’t know apple translate), with a better understanding of the context. Not perfect, far from it, but still better. I believe the version 4 of ChatGPT is much better than the version 3-something, but version 4 is a payed version while version 3 is free.
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OCTO
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Re: Ornaments in different languages

Post by OCTO »

I have a music dictionary book with English, German, French, Italian, Russian - and Serbian. But it has hundreds of pages. I believe it is translated from an old Czechoslovakian book from the '60s.
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NeeraWM
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Re: Ornaments in different languages

Post by NeeraWM »

Hi Octo,
This would for sure help a lot!
Do you know where I could find a copy of it?
Thanks
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OCTO
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Re: Ornaments in different languages

Post by OCTO »

This is the book:
https://openlibrary.org/works/OL1866518 ... ih_termina

Now I am checking: the main part is in Serbian (detailed explanation), but about 1/3 of the book is the actual index of the words in Italian, French, German, English and Czech.

Pericic was a composer but most remembered as a professor, and with numerous published books on music theory, analysis, form, which is de facto the standard in the former Yugoslavia. His books are indeed excellent.
At the beginning of his career Vlastimir Peričić (1927-2000)was a promising young composer who won a prestigous Vercelli Competition Prize in 1950 for his String quartet. His style was characterized by post-romantic musical expression. He was convinced that a tonal system was the only acceptable base for making new music. In that sense, he came close to Paul Hindemith's approach to the world of new sonorities. The author explains Peričić's position in the context of Serbian music of the second half of the 20th century. He was considered somewhat conservative because he never accepted avant-garde techniques and procedures. His imagination and concentration on compositional process made him competent in the technical realization of his rich musical ideas. On the other hand, he was a shy personality who had never been penetrating enough to promote his own works. Hence, during the last decades of his life (when he stopped composing) almost no one was conscious of the great value of his works. Peričić suddenly interrupted his compositional career in the mid 1960s and thereafter devoted himself to theoretical work. His books on counterpoint harmony, and Serbian composers, many articles on contemporary Serbian composers, as well as his major multilingual dictionary of musical terms which includes seven languages, were among the finest fruits of Serbian theoretical achievements in the field of music. Now is the moment to reexamine Peričić's opus because his compositional achievements, as well as his theoretical studies, were of the highest quality. Peričić was a real part of the European music elite as a composer and musicologist, but he never received adequate professional recognition, especially in a broader European context.
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NeeraWM
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Re: Ornaments in different languages

Post by NeeraWM »

I'm actually in Serbia now, and Serbian per se would not be a problem now that I'm getting more comfortable with it.
I will see if I can find a copy here, even if a digital edition would be easier to bring along.
I believe a modern "Apple Book style" edition doesn't exist, right?
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OCTO
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Re: Ornaments in different languages

Post by OCTO »

NeeraWM wrote: 25 Aug 2023, 20:26 I'm actually in Serbia now, and Serbian per se would not be a problem now that I'm getting more comfortable with it.
Interesting!
NeeraWM wrote: 25 Aug 2023, 20:26 I believe a modern "Apple Book style" edition doesn't exist, right?
I don't think it is possible to find in that format. Even I couldn't find a PDF version of it.
Here are some sample of pages I took with my phone.
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NeeraWM
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Re: Ornaments in different languages

Post by NeeraWM »

Thanks for sharing this.
In the end, the biggest issue I am facing is in translation from German to whatever else.
No problem with English, French, and Italian terminology, but I need to find a German music theory book, possibly with double language in any of the aforementioned ones. Or, alternatively, with pictures! :-)
No German-English dictionary will give a proper translation of Vorschlag...
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John Ruggero
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Re: Ornaments in different languages

Post by John Ruggero »

Vorschlag is usually translated appoggiatura or grace note; nachschlag as afterbeat, trill termination, or trill suffix. The Harvard Dictionary of Music has definitions and translations of many of these. Since there may not be exact equivalents, they are also often left in the original language as Harpsichordmaker mentioned. Or you might compare Dannreuter's Musical Ornamentation (British English terminology) to Beyschlag's Ornamentik, both which are available online, or an original to the English translation of a work like C. P E. Bach's Essay (American English in this case). And you could run some of the terms you need here also to see how readers would prefer to see them in English.
Last edited by John Ruggero on 02 Sep 2023, 17:10, edited 1 time in total.
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NeeraWM
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Re: Ornaments in different languages

Post by NeeraWM »

Thank you John.
What is the original title of CPE Bach Essay that you mentioned?
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