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rest amalgamation compound time, quarter note beats
Posted: 19 Sep 2024, 23:58
by MichelRE
I keep getting tripped up by this rule, about amalgamating or not before and after beats in compound time.
So I have a bar of 6/4
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| (imagine that this last one is actually a dotted half note rest, and not a dotted note)
Can I, or must I not, amalgamate those two quarter note rests on beats 2 and 3 (this is counted/conducted as six beats, and not as a 2-beat bar of dotted halves.)
I can see where, for example in 6/8 one would count as two beats per bar and it would be more important to show the subdivisions of the beats with individual rests for "and a".
But here it's actually one, two, three, four, five, six. there's no feeling of that barcarolle "swing" to the rhythm.
Re: rest amalgamation compound time, quarter note beats
Posted: 20 Sep 2024, 00:44
by hautbois baryton
No, you would only combine two quarter rests on 1, 3, or 5 in this case.
Re: rest amalgamation compound time, quarter note beats
Posted: 20 Sep 2024, 01:09
by MichelRE
except amalgamating rests on 3-4 and 5-6 turns the notation into 3/2, which is "wrong" in this particular context.
Re: rest amalgamation compound time, quarter note beats
Posted: 21 Sep 2024, 13:35
by RMK
Leave it as it is.
6/4 is interpreted as 3+3, no matter how it is conducted.
Re: rest amalgamation compound time, quarter note beats
Posted: 21 Sep 2024, 15:15
by John Ruggero
No half rests in 3/4. Same in 6/4 or 9/4 etc.; only dotted half rests. Exception: if you move to 3/2 within a 6/4 section and don't change the meter, then half rests on the three strong beats only. As a rare exception one may use a half rest instead of two quarter rests in 3/4 etc.to show a single fermata over those two quarter beats.
Re: rest amalgamation compound time, quarter note beats
Posted: 22 Sep 2024, 14:55
by MichelRE
help me understand the origin behind this rule?
I accept it, I'm just curious about "why".
I understand in 4/4 not obscuring the half-measure.
But I can't see the reasoning in 3/4.
I like to understand the reasoning behind a rule. It helps me assimilate it better.
Re: rest amalgamation compound time, quarter note beats
Posted: 22 Sep 2024, 22:04
by John Ruggero
I'd be interested in the origin of this convention as well. Anyone know for sure? It certainly goes way back.
A conjecture: our present system of rhythmic values is based on duple divisions. Whole notes and rests, divided into halves, quarters etc. and makes the 4/4 measure the starting point. Triple time is a makeshift affair made out of bits and pieces of duple time note and rest values, some of which have been accepted, like the half note, and some not, like the half rest.
Sorry, MichelRE. That's the best I can come up with .
And I am not sure about half rest plus quarter rest to show a half measure of 6/4 etc. Perhaps that is sometimes done. But I much prefer dotted rests in 6/4, 6/8 etc.
Re: rest amalgamation compound time, quarter note beats
Posted: 23 Sep 2024, 11:57
by Fred G. Unn
John Ruggero wrote: ↑21 Sep 2024, 15:15
No half rests in 3/4. Same in 6/4 or 9/4 etc.; only dotted half rests.
The no half rests in 3/4 is certainly a hard-and-fast rule except for the fermata exception you mentioned, but not so for multiples of 3/4 as a long string of quarter rests can be disorienting and obscure the meter. It's ok to consolidate leading quarters but not trailing quarters in multiples of 3/4. It's sort of odd looking, but I'm pretty sure the first bar below would be considered "correct," and not the second.

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At first glance, the meter of the second bar is unclear, as the eye has to parse all the quarters, where the half rest in the first bar makes it instantly clear that we're in 6/4.
Re: rest amalgamation compound time, quarter note beats
Posted: 23 Sep 2024, 12:02
by John Ruggero
Re: rest amalgamation compound time, quarter note beats
Posted: 23 Sep 2024, 12:33
by RMK
Fred G. Unn wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 11:57
At first glance, the meter of the second bar is unclear, as the eye has to parse all the quarters, where the half rest in the first bar makes it instantly clear that we're in 6/4.
It is unclear only because there is no context. I think that as part of a phrase, the meaning would be clear enough.
To me, the first example looks weird.