"Ten Music Notation Programs", including Dorico

Recommendations concerning notation and publishing software in a non-partisan environment.
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Den
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Re: "Ten Music Notation Programs", including Dorico

Post by Den »

Den wrote:
07 Mar 2020, 12:46
benwiggy wrote:
07 Mar 2020, 12:11
The first thing I notice is that the ties seem a little flat.
ThnX for your notice. Good eye!

You can change this very easily in "Fixed or Manual Layout Options" (for all new Projects - as if it were a "Fixed Project"), and all links can look like anything or the way you want in any "Default" option. bar, staff, Page or any other Project. Each object and function has manual control over all visual and logical aspects.

Of course I could change my initial Default to a different visual appearance of any parameter in this case of notation.
This is just a simple test in Igor, so I left some visual things by default from my earlier projects ...
I think the point in all the previous programs is how the whole software "works" and what its logic is in engraving notation, right?

This is simple Settings for ties:
screenshot_tiesSettings.png
screenshot_tiesSettings.png (13.7 KiB) Viewed 1024 times
And of course, you can change anything visually for any given default New Projects like "Default Settings" and don't change that for years!:
ties,slurs,dots,staff,beams,lines,rests,signs etc.etc.etc.
(size scale,angles,horiz+vertic fixed,hide,move,copy,paste,...).

OCTO
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Re: "Ten Music Notation Programs", including Dorico

Post by OCTO »

Igor was indeed a very good software for that time, and having linked parts long time before Sibelius. Some scores of Edition Peters were done in it.
I believe that it could had developed further wonderfully from that starting point, but after they stopped developing it the owners didn't want to release it even as a open source. I mailed them about 2 years ago, and they still din't want to do anything with it.
Freelance Composer. Self-Publisher.
Finale 25.5 • Sibelius 2019 • MuseScore 2+3 • Logic Pro X • Ableton Live 9+10 • Digital Performer 9 /// OS X El Capitan, (side system: Debian 9, Windows 10)

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Den
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Re: "Ten Music Notation Programs", including Dorico

Post by Den »

OCTO wrote:
08 Mar 2020, 06:29
Igor was indeed a very good software for that time, and having linked parts long time before Sibelius. Some scores of Edition Peters were done in it.
I believe that it could had developed further wonderfully from that starting point, but after they stopped developing it the owners didn't want to release it even as a open source. I mailed them about 2 years ago, and they still din't want to do anything with it.
Yes OCTO. True and sad...

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Den
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Re: "Ten Music Notation Programs", including Dorico

Post by Den »

If you are interested in Igor, I will try to answer.
ThnX

Also I have NoteAbility Pro...

benwiggy
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Re: "Ten Music Notation Programs", including Dorico

Post by benwiggy »

No matter how good, there's little merit in resurrecting old, unsupported apps. Even if you can get them to work today, there's no guarantee that they'll work tomorrow.

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Den
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Re: "Ten Music Notation Programs", including Dorico

Post by Den »

benwiggy wrote:
08 Mar 2020, 21:35
No matter how good, there's little merit in resurrecting old, unsupported apps. Even if you can get them to work today, there's no guarantee that they'll work tomorrow.
Yes benwiggy that is correct but..
I explain something here. I work with Igor about I mean cca.15 year and everything work and all is fine.
In Igor "end product", that is print score on HQ paper.. is in one word-extraordinary&unique!
I work some scores with my friends on Sibelius (on Music Academy) and that is only good laser printed works or how can I say...good "laser printed scores".
When you compare (any version of Sib!) on print quality, that is like comparing two different cars.
For example: Export your EPS file from Igor and Sibelius (or any other program) and print your score on HQ Publishing Printer machine B,A4,A3,A2
And than...Light! :idea: You can see what is difference! Thats is like comparing two lightbulb , one is like good color and have only 7W and have natural light color (which not disturb and not damage your eyes) than bulb which have 150W! I couldn't believe it with my eyes either, until I was convinced by myself, long time ago. It was almost like an overhead light at one time and a wonderful feeling for my eyes. The notation you do with Igor is something really special. Many conductors asked me what version of Sibelius I was working with and when I mentioned to them that I was no longer working at Sibelius anymore, that I had uninstalled it completly, many were left shocked!
I don't want to persuade anyone here, nor is it my intention. It is only from my many years of experience that I have explained the many frustrations I have had with other programs before. And the awful problems before the finale itself, ie. final printing.
Igor is programmed very smart and in short - soooo simple!
Now I've seen Dorico, but ... he's not yet a complete professional program, sorry, and he's not so intuitive about simple work and finnish product even now on v3.1.10.
I have already seen in him many things that will not be solved from the ground up.
A lot of this is thought more mathematically. I saw a print on a laser printer and I can say it is about just standard print or just ok but nothing more ....
The finale has a friend of mine who is a professor at the Academy and always has some problems, especially with timing (you know what I'm talking about). I leave some things deliberately visible in the notation in Igor, some lines, connections on the notes, etc. Line systems, fine lines etc.
I am not saying that these things cannot be done in other programs, but I can freely say that Igor has a "soul" in the appearance and high-end print quality of notation. Not too clean clinically and not too big like standard laser-printed notations. Many publishers still use this program secretly to obtain special quality for some types of notations. Sib. and Finale are major programs for conversions, some works in modern scores, but ... there are still unknown programs that unfortunately have no support ... they are still very functional and fast. Here I am referring to the use of your time you spend with your "new" programs,plugins,etc. and then realize that you have spent the whole day and could finish it in, say, 1-2 hours .... without anxiety and frustration and frustrations...
It's just my humble experience with many notation software.
Yes, sometimes crashed just like others programs, but that is nothing special and new for program like old Igor which is programmed in LISP...
Compare to Sibelius crashes...puhhhh...O my Goood! :roll:
This small program have really publishing quality print on end.
I never have any problem with exported formats PDF, vector EPS , I just type from time to time some scores and
and enjoy working with Igor and new experiences.
Nothing less, nothing more. Very simple.
If you have a good car, why change it for a new one, when newer cars with too much electronics are constantly in the service, I see them with my mechanic every day .... who have serious frustration and confusion with new cars, and who have service almost daily. Maybe is that cars are faster,sure, but...price is your >health ;-)
Yes, the old car is old and needs polishing and servicing, unfortunately in this case Igor haven't support for many years, but I wonder what if Igor does his job properly and quality? Maybe in the future we have "better" solutions for some change in notation programs, but what we can do for now is...wait and wait.... :wink: If you work in Finale and enjoy, good! If you work in Sib., good! Design and working in notation software is not only "software". Man is who give something special to scores, not softwares. Yes?

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John Ruggero
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Re: "Ten Music Notation Programs", including Dorico

Post by John Ruggero »

I'd love to experience what you are talking about, Den. But I guess that is impossible. In any case, I have no complaints about the print quality that I get with Finale. To me, it looks as good if not better than what i see from the major publishers. But, as Notat.io readers know, I am no connoisseur in this area and was never an audiophile either.

My pet peeve is that the user interface seems to have taken second place to everything else in the notation programs with which I am familiar. None are set up out of the box in a way that feels very natural. However, after much experimentation with keyboard commands and settings changes with the help of the Notat.io community, I now find Finale quite enjoyable to use. I am rarely frustrated and I get 99.99 percent of the results I want.
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
http://www.cantilenapress.com

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Den
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Re: "Ten Music Notation Programs", including Dorico

Post by Den »

That's right Mr. Ruggero, I totally agree with you, this is exactly what I was talking about.
p.s. I hope my language is not too incomprehensible, i am also assisted by google, so i apologize to everyone for my grammar mistakes etc. :-)

benwiggy
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Re: "Ten Music Notation Programs", including Dorico

Post by benwiggy »

Den wrote:
09 Mar 2020, 00:33
Now I've seen Dorico, but ... he's not yet a complete professional program, sorry, and he's not so intuitive about simple work and finnish product even now on v3.1.10.
I have already seen in him many things that will not be solved from the ground up.
A lot of this is thought more mathematically. I saw a print on a laser printer and I can say it is about just standard print or just ok but nothing more ....
"Intuitive" is thrown around a lot: most people seem to think it means that you can use it perfectly with no instruction or reading documentation. In fact Dorico is very intuitive, in that it is entirely consistent: pressing Alt affects every action in the same way; adding each notation item is SHIFT something; etc, etc. Once you've learnt a few key features of its design, it's extraordinarily straightforward, if not simple.

Its default output is easily, demonstrably better than Finale's default output: but of course these are all tools in the hands of workers -- by changing the various options and parameters you can improve on the defaults, and use different fonts. You can make all the manual adjustments you want to, just like Finale.
I am currently importing every Finale document I've produced in the last 20 years and re-setting it in Dorico, because the results are instantly better.

I'd be interested to know what you think Dorico won't be able to solve 'from the ground up'. This is, after all, the team's second attempt at notation software, and they've clearly given a lot of thought to how they are going to build it over time.

People have been saying "Dorico's not ready; it's not finished; it's not complete" since it was released. But there are many professional engravers and musicians using it every day. With each release, the list of impossibles becomes smaller and smaller. I dare say there are things that cannot be done in Igor Engraver, too.

I may be a flag-waver for Dorico, but that's because I've used so many other notation apps that didn't do what software is supposed to do: to help us; and to do the work for us.

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John Ruggero
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Re: "Ten Music Notation Programs", including Dorico

Post by John Ruggero »

You are doing fine, Den. I had long wondered about Igor and what finally happened with that project.

And please call me John.
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
http://www.cantilenapress.com

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