Tantacrul Dorico video

Recommendations concerning notation and publishing software in a non-partisan environment.
mducharme
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Re: Tantacrul Dorico video

Post by mducharme »

Although as shown above, I disagree with Tantacrul's thesis overall, I did agree with a few aspects of Tantacrul's feedback:

1. Tantacrul only addressed this indirectly, but I think Dorico should have an optional wizard when creating a new score. The wizard would allow you to add instruments, set a starting tempo, key signature, time signature, and whether you want the first page to include the movement name or not. I see no harm to including such a wizard for new users - it doesnt go against the design principles and makes the program easier for new users to come onboard. I really don't see the downside to including such a feature. I also agree with him that the default staff size could better adjust itself if you have a large number of instruments on the score.

2. I completely agree with the way Dorico embraces the piano-roll-as-notation-interface concept. However, this does not explain why Dorico needs to prohibit slicing a note in half by selecting the tie and deleting it? It might be an old fashioned way of slicing a single duration into two, but I don't see a good reason for prohibiting it, other than "you should use the scissors option to slice it instead". Sometimes it might be the case where the tie is exactly the best spot to slice it, but Dorico doesn't provide that option, for no good reason.

3. This is again extremely indirect, but Dorico has a dire need for tutorials. When I first moved from Finale to Sibelius, I was aided by the fact that Sibelius contained within it a full fledged tutorial where I could learn to engrave with all features. I'm sure many people did not use that, but I did. It helped me get up to speed on Sibelius quite quickly when I was previously a dedicated Finale user. I really think Dorico needs tutorials like that, and soon. Tantacrul did not say this in his video, but it comes across in the results.

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John Ruggero
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Re: Tantacrul Dorico video

Post by John Ruggero »

DatOrganistTho wrote:
02 Jun 2020, 04:43
Why some subject themselves to this kind of torture is beyond me.
I agree. Anyone who has he kind of trouble you described using Finale for their purposes should definitely try Dorico, because it could well be the answer. However, those of us who have a smooth workflow with Finale and need to do things that Dorico can't do yet will of course, stay put for now.

I took Tantacrul's thesis to be that Dorico doesn't give a new user a smooth initial impression, and since first impressions count for many, it is in Dorico's best interest to improve this situation. Dorico also has some rough edges, like being able to put down all the note durations at once in a certain state, and some over-complication. I encountered all of this myself. Despite this, however, he was still torn between Sibelius, which he had used for years, and Dorico, and opted for Sibelius by the slimmest of margins. I think he is rooting for Dorico and hopes, as I do, that it soon becomes possible to use such refreshingly well-thought-out tool.
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David Ward
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Re: Tantacrul Dorico video

Post by David Ward »

DatOrganistTho wrote:
02 Jun 2020, 04:43
… … …Why some subject themselves to this kind of torture is beyond me.
Because for this old (senile?) man learning new software might be an even greater torture.

I'm not a music ‘engraver’ as such. I compose in manuscript and then prepare a fair copy in Finale from which I (or somebody) can prepare parts, vocal scores &c. Finale has all sorts of infuriating habits, but I suspect any computer software would for me. I'm not really a machine person, although I'm competent enough at the few I use. I still sort of(!) prefer a horse as a mode of transport to a motor car, and I sometimes think sail is an almost magical way of traversing the water. However, I do realize I live in the twenty first century and can be quite adventurous, even creative, in my use of the machines with which I do work.
DatOrganistTho wrote:
02 Jun 2020, 04:43
In my opinion, he pandered to the senile and disgruntled few who have already voiced their issues with the program (and Steinberg).
Senile? Maybe, but if so happy in my senility: not disgruntled at all.
Finale 25.5 & F 26.2.2
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mducharme
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Re: Tantacrul Dorico video

Post by mducharme »

John Ruggero wrote:
02 Jun 2020, 16:06
like being able to put down all the note durations at once in a certain state
What exactly are you referring to here? I am not quite sure.

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John Ruggero
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Re: Tantacrul Dorico video

Post by John Ruggero »

I managed to select several note durations so they were all selected at the same time after having done some operation or other. Please don't ask me what caused it, I don't have access to the program now. But it struck me as very strange and something that had slipped through the cracks. Better users might not encounter it. I believe Tantacrul showed this phenomenon in the latter part of his video.
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mducharme
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Re: Tantacrul Dorico video

Post by mducharme »

Yes, I saw that in the video, but I wasn't exactly sure how he did that. I don't recall ever having that happen to me. I tried to reproduce it in Dorico 3.5 and could not.

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John Ruggero
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Re: Tantacrul Dorico video

Post by John Ruggero »

I think it was a series of operations in a different order than envisioned by the designers. Perhaps they have corrected it.
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Florian
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Re: Tantacrul Dorico video

Post by Florian »

John Ruggero wrote:
02 Jun 2020, 16:06
I took Tantacrul's thesis to be that Dorico doesn't give a new user a smooth initial impression, and since first impressions count for many, it is in Dorico's best interest to improve this situation.
Yes, but not necessarily. I had been using Finale for a decade when Dorico came out and I got the hang of it within hours. Not days. Hours. My first impression was a sense of relief because – finally! – there was a program that handled things elegantly and logically. And that was at version 1.0 with all its lacunae and truly terrible performance.

Now what about the people whose first impression of Dorico was that video? How many of them will still give it a shot? And even if they do, will they be able to approach it "neutrally"?

If you know how Dorico really works, this is all not a big deal. Wave it aside and move on with your life. But: The economics of producing notation software are likely very difficult and the market is now saturated with three professional products and a number of pretty good open-source alternatives. Let's face it, Dorico is currently the only software with a real perspective. We needn't talk about the other two. Lilypond is fantastic, but kind of in a different playground. And Musescore is neither even close to Dorico's level of sophistication, nor can it be in any foreseeable future because, frankly, it's open-source and just not something like LibreOffice or the Linux kernel with continuous contributions from hundreds of excellent professional programmers from all over the world. I think if we want the best possible notation software our best bet is to keep the development of Dorico going as long as possible.

Tantacrul's Sibelius video hit a software with a stable user base. This one hits one that is still in the process of establishing its share of the market. I have no idea how big an impact his disingenious critique will have on sales, and probably noone will ever know. But it's there on YouTube now and it comes up pretty prominently when you search for Dorico. And while Steinberg is genuinely interested in making their products better, Yamaha... well, who knows how long they will keep up the investment.

I admit, when I think it through in this direction, I do get a little angry.

DatOrganistTho
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Re: Tantacrul Dorico video

Post by DatOrganistTho »

David Ward wrote:
02 Jun 2020, 17:55
DatOrganistTho wrote:
02 Jun 2020, 04:43
… … …Why some subject themselves to this kind of torture is beyond me.
Because for this old (senile?) man learning new software might be an even greater torture.

I'm not a music ‘engraver’ as such. I compose in manuscript and then prepare a fair copy in Finale from which I (or somebody) can prepare parts, vocal scores &c. Finale has all sorts of infuriating habits, but I suspect any computer software would for me. I'm not really a machine person, although I'm competent enough at the few I use. I still sort of(!) prefer a horse as a mode of transport to a motor car, and I sometimes think sail is an almost magical way of traversing the water. However, I do realize I live in the twenty first century and can be quite adventurous, even creative, in my use of the machines with which I do work.
DatOrganistTho wrote:
02 Jun 2020, 04:43
In my opinion, he pandered to the senile and disgruntled few who have already voiced their issues with the program (and Steinberg).
Senile? Maybe, but if so happy in my senility: not disgruntled at all.
David, by pandering I mean forming straw men out of Dorico to make curmudgeons who dismiss any technology based on modern technological requirements feel better about themselves.

I'd never insinuate that you are senile or disgruntled, but I refuse to lay myself down at what is potentially a real game changer for engravers and composers on leaky arguments. I don't remember Tantacrul ever showing up to the forum to ask questions. There were comments on the video on the "days" people spent on learning how to do "the most basic stuff." The tutorials total less than 10 hours! That's including the more advanced stuff. You could watch, "the most basic stuff" tutorials in under an hour. It's nearly slander.

I'd like to reiterate that if someone is married to their workflow because they are used to it and that's what works best for them, then it's no harm, no foul. But, taking up a new platform and complaining about how 'it doesn't behave like X, it makes no sense' because you're transitioning from a different paradigm is not an excuse to say it's 'janky, inferior, or rife with problems.'
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Florian
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Re: Tantacrul Dorico video

Post by Florian »

Actually, the Dorico defense front (including me) might have been overreacting. This post on the Dorico user forum sheds some light on how critique is usually handled among professional designers. According to that post, the video is actually both high praise for Dorico and a valuable professional assessment.

Not sure what to make of it and until I am I'll be a wise man and remain silent.

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