Dorico slurs and beams

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David Ward
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Re: Dorico slurs and beams

Post by David Ward »

John Ruggero wrote: 09 Feb 2022, 23:44"Fred", don't you love the white on black? It's so easy on the eyes. Not.
I suppose everybody's eyes are different, but my old (due to be 81 in just over two weeks) eyes cope so badly with ‘dark mode’ that I usually don't even try to read things on this forum which are displayed in it. Similarly there are some overdesigned CD booklets &c which I find completely illegible nowadays. At least my hearing remains excellent!
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John Ruggero
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Re: Dorico slurs and beams

Post by John Ruggero »

Aside from the optical issues, I find dark mode depressing. It's like living in a perpetual night. I prefer daylight.
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Anders Hedelin
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Re: Dorico slurs and beams

Post by Anders Hedelin »

And on top of the optical and psychological reasons not to like 'dark mode' there's the aesthetic aspect. I (too?) find it overdesigned, to use David's word, and in poor taste. Just because you can do it on a computer, you don't have to.
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benwiggy
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Re: Dorico slurs and beams

Post by benwiggy »

Here's a revised Dorico project file that I've recently prepared. It’s a ‘Factory defaults’ file, except for changes to the following Engraving Options:

Beams
Lyrics > Hyphens
Notes > Stems
Slurs

based on the process I've described at the start of this thread, and the discussions that follow.

Using the new Library Manager, it should be easy enough to import these into any project file without affecting any other settings.
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Dorico Slurs and Beams.dorico.zip
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John Ruggero
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Re: Dorico slurs and beams

Post by John Ruggero »

That's very helpful, Ben. Thanks.
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Fred G. Unn
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Re: Dorico slurs and beams

Post by Fred G. Unn »

benwiggy wrote: 11 Feb 2022, 11:27 Using the new Library Manager, it should be easy enough to import these into any project file without affecting any other settings.
Thanks for posting! I stole your hyphen settings. I guess my default differs a bit from the factory settings :lol: :lol: :lol:

Image
benwiggy
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Re: Dorico slurs and beams

Post by benwiggy »

Actually, the squish factor for hyphens could go up a bit more to 1/2.

I'm going to post on the Dorico forum, with a 'mini-article' about which of the options are most significant to achieving different results.
NeeraWM
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Re: Dorico slurs and beams

Post by NeeraWM »

Fred G. Unn wrote: 03 Oct 2021, 22:52 I actually tried to spend some time tweaking my beam settings a couple of weeks ago. I tried to copy pages 104 and 105 of the Ross book to start by getting some good settings for two notes, but ended up quite frustrated.
Here's as close as I could get just by using Engraving Options and no manual tweaking:
Image
Image
I scored 54/81. Not awful, but certainly not great either. The 3 I missed on pg 105 system 3 are particularly terrible IMO.

Has anyone else tried a similar test? Could you get closer without any manual adjustments?
Reopening this Pandora's box at my own risk!
Have you created this page in Dorico directly?
If you did, please tell me there is a way other than Codas to achieve it!

I'm copying those pages from Ross, and from the UE handbook to see where I can get.
I don't think Gould has similar pages. Does Stone have? I don't remember now.
I'm trying (and apparently failing so far) to wrap my head around what formulas influence what parameters.
As you and others already noted, inserting the exact slants we would like to have is not producing what we would expect.
The key seems to lie somewhere in the stem-shortening point and amount, and I surprisingly had nice results with the 16th-notes shortened at 2 7/8! This worked for certain notes, and didn't for others, increasing the headache!
I wonder if there is a real solution to get, say 80 or 90% as one would like to, and manually adjust the inevitable. For slurs I was able to find exactly what I wanted and now I have to adjust only grace notes slurs and slurs over big intervals. But for beams...
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Fred G. Unn
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Re: Dorico slurs and beams

Post by Fred G. Unn »

NeeraWM wrote: 01 Jan 2024, 23:35 Have you created this page in Dorico directly?
If you did, please tell me there is a way other than Codas to achieve it!
Haha, nope, just used Codas.
Image

It's a really complicated mess of interrelated settings. Obviously the Beams settings are important, but also Notes/Stems plays a big role too. I found it helpful to not think of the Beam Slants as actual numbers, but merely settings to achieve the results you want. My settings have changed a bit since I last posted here, but I'm reasonably happy with them now. It's only every now and then something looks so obviously wrong that I have to manually tweak it.
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Fred G. Unn
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Re: Dorico slurs and beams

Post by Fred G. Unn »

NeeraWM wrote: 01 Jan 2024, 23:35 I wonder if there is a real solution to get, say 80 or 90% as one would like to, and manually adjust the inevitable.
I just reconfigured all my beam settings over the weekend, and pretty much threw out all my older settings. In addition to Ross and the UE handbook, Clinton Roemer's book has very detailed beaming settings as well, although typically with longer stems than Ross, so I don't really care for it. Of the 3, I'm definitely a Ross fan. To get Ross-style beaming, I now think there are a few factors:

1) In EO / Notes / Stems, the setting for #4 has to be > than 2.5 spaces. It can be 2 101/200 if you want, but has to be > than 2.5 or you can run into situations where a stem is too short (as the shorten beamed stems setting is applied after this calculation I think) and you can have a collision between a beam and a flat. The flipside is that the bigger this setting is, the more it screws up the Ross sit/straddle/hang rules as it makes some of them impossible. I settled on 2 5/8. As with all beaming and stem settings, the numbers aren't absolute as Dorico will snap them to "legal" positions. Don't really pay attention to the literal value of any of these settings, just think of them as a means to get the results you want. I'm still figuring out the setting for #5 as 2 5/8 isn't great for it for some stems are then too long. Maybe 2 1/2 will work, but I'm still testing.

2) Stem Shortening obviously plays a role too. I settled on -1,4 for my settings. On page 85 Ross seems to start his shortening at -1 on the notes with the asterisks. Obviously you can use whatever settings you like, but I think it's best to get this set too before starting to play with beam angles.

3) I use Notes / Stems / "Shorten beamed stems" as that's the Ross setting. There's a corollary setting that this interacts with at Beams / Vertical Position / "Snap to staff line positions" which is also the Ross setting. I was getting very poor results with only one of them selected, so it's possible you really might need either both of these or neither of these selected. The factory default is neither of them; I'm using both of the Ross settings. I didn't really investigate further, but there's definitely some sort of interaction between these two settings, even though organizationally they are in different parts of the options menu.

4) Once you have decided on all of the above, then it's time to play with beam angles. As everything is interrelated, I really wouldn't recommend adjusting the angles until after you have all of the above settings as you like them. If you're unhappy with the results, and go back and change one of the earlier settings, just assume all of your beam angle settings will need to be thrown out and reconfigured too. As with the other settings, don't pay attention to the actual values here, just pay attention to the results. Obviously some beam angle settings may be nonsensical, but are fine if they get the results you want.

I did eventually get to this point:
beaming.png
beaming.png (183.29 KiB) Viewed 121093 times
The 2nd entries in both the Fourths and Fifths categories are pretty ugly, but almost all of the others match the Ross prescriptions under the notes. That's as close as I could get with my current settings anyway.
Last edited by Fred G. Unn on 08 Jan 2024, 14:53, edited 1 time in total.
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