Multiple voices, single staff again

[dircknagy]

Hello again

I'm confused about another multiple voices on one staff situation:

Are there any rules regarding horizontal placement of notes in middle voices? How is this affected by stem direction?

Example below:

measure 35, beat 3 "a" is behind the note column.
In measure 36, beat 1 and beat 3, and measure 37, beat 1, this voice is in front of the note column.

Last line.png (35.78 KiB) Viewed 1629 times

FWIW, Lilypond's default voice order is shown below. Is this the general consensus, if the voices are explicit?

Thanks to all for any advice!

Dirck
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Lily voice order.png (20.25 KiB) Viewed 1629 times

[Magnus Johansson]

Hello! This is very interesting. From what edition is your music example? Is it for guitar?

[dircknagy]

Hello! This is very interesting. From what edition is your music example? Is it for guitar?

Hello Magnus

I'm not sure what you mean by "edition"...?

This is a lute piece by Francesco da Milano that I am arranging for guitar. The image is my own engraving using Lilypond.

dirck

[dircknagy]

I might not have been clear with my original post...sorry!

My biggest question is the position of the.middle voices.

Each individual measure looks good to me, but you can see that the middle voice is not treated consistently from m. 35 to m. 37.

Should these middle voice notes be:

• in front of the note column (as in m.35)?
• behind the note column (m.36)?
• or, lined up with the note column, with a shortened stem? (this could be done with m.36 and 37)

Or, does it even matter? Should the individual measures look good, and thats all?

BTW, this will be a performance score, not a "scholarly" edition! (if it were a scholarly edition, i would engrave all the notes on a grand staff)

thanks again! I'm sorry to bother everyone here with questions like these, which are probably basic knowledge for a professional engraver!

Dirck

[John Ruggero]

I think that Lilypond is getting this right. However, I didn't understand the diagram at the end of your post.

In situations like the second half of m. 36 and m. 37 it is best to dovetail the middle voice to make a more compact appearance. However, dovetailing is not possible when seconds are involved as in m. 35, and the note is moved to the other side. However, Lilypond seems to be making the first beat of m. 36 an exception to conform with the two following similar situations. Quite sophisticated.

Here is the way Dorico does it by default. I find it less musical.

Dorico.png (41.64 KiB) Viewed 1602 times

[dircknagy]

addendum: I understand that guitar music is a niche, and not often covered in style manuals, but if anyone can point me to a manual with good coverage regarding guitar idiosyncracies, I'd be grateful!

Special problems regarding guitar that I run into fairly often:

• 3 and 4 voices per staff
• simultaneous unisons on different strings
• harmonics notation
• scordatura notation

BTW, I usually use Kurt Stone and Gardner Read as my reference books, but there is very little regarding guitar issues in them

There is a lot of poorly engraved guitar music out there! I'm trying to make my stuff a little better!

thanks again!

dirck

[dircknagy]

I think that Lilypond is getting this right. However, I didn't understand the diagram at the end of your post.

In situations like the second half of m. 36 and m. 37 it is best to dovetail the middle voice to make a more compact appearance. However, dovetailing is not possible when seconds are involved as in m. 35, and the note is moved to the other side. However, Lilypond seems to be making the first beat of m. 36 an exception to conform with the two following similar situations. Quite sophisticated.

Here is the way Dorico does it by default. I find it less musical.

Dorico.png

Thank you John!

So on the downbeat of m. 36, should the middle voice "A" be moved to the right side, or is it OK where it is? m.36 and 37 are Lilypond defaults, BTW. I had to adjust m.35 manually.

I don't care for Dorico's default either; i'd rather see the highest and lowest voices aligned vertically wherever possible

[John Ruggero]

If you had to adjust m. 35, then perhaps Lilypond is not as sophisticated as I had assumed! No, I would leave it as is. You are doing a good job. And guitar music follows the same conventions as music for any other medium, as far as I know. Any solo string music will have multiple voices on one staff and one will face the same issues.

[dircknagy]

...

Thanks John!

[Magnus Johansson]

Hello! This is very interesting. From what edition is your music example? Is it for guitar?

Hello Magnus

I'm not sure what you mean by "edition"...?

This is a lute piece by Francesco da Milano that I am arranging for guitar. The image is my own engraving using Lilypond.

dirck

Then we can perhaps say it is your edition. Attaching my suggestion for the passage in question:

Screenshot_20260401_100423.png (8.53 KiB) Viewed 1569 times