Flipping the center line note?

[John Ruggero]

I'm a variable direction person myself. I see absolutely no reason to have such a rigid and arbitrary rule.
reading the music isn't easier if one single note has its stem in the opposite direction from all the other notes around it. quite the opposite.

+1

In past years I posted numerous examples of how some of the best composers of the past have used stem direction to create unity and communicate various ideas in their music. This was not arbitrary, but meaningful, and can be helpful in reading and understanding the music. The Wiener Urtext is an edition that often retains such features. I've never had a student find this edition difficult to read. They seem oblivious to the deviations from current engraving practice unless I point them out.

[LSL2026]

They seem oblivious to the deviations from current engraving practice unless I point them out.

Yep. This is the kind of stuff people like all of us here pay attention to, but most players don’t even notice.

I’ll add too that there are MANY situations where a stem direction on a center note is up because it’s beamed with another up-stemmed note or group. So it’s not going to throw people when it’s a non-beamed note.

Now that I’ve been reminded there’s plenty of historical precedent - well, I’ve already flipped them all in the piece

I have the Read and Stone, so that might be where I’m vaguely remembering it from.

[John Ruggero]

Thanks for your thoughts on this, LSL2026. I think that another good reason to have flexibility in stem direction has to do with slurring.

Slurring a up stem note to a down stem note can be awkward for seconds and thirds. This lessens for greater intervals. Therefore, I would go with A, B, C and D in the following example:

Stems and slurs.png (60.32 KiB) Viewed 883 times

[frames]

Thanks for your thoughts on this, LSL2026. I think that another good reason to have flexibility in stem direction has to do with slurring.

Slurring a up stem note to a down stem note can be awkward for seconds and thirds. This lessons for greater intervals. Therefore, I would go with A, B, C and D in the following example:

Stems and slurs.png

I like to attach slurs to noteheads rather than stems when stem directions are mixed, which definitely helps the first two examples look better.

[John Ruggero]

Would you give an example? A picture is worth etc.

[Shinianqi]

Would you give an example? A picture is worth etc.

Sorry for jumping into the conversation, John.

I don't mean to speak on behalf of frames, but when I saw the examples you posted, the first thing that came to mind was essentially the same point he was making.

Although I know you've carefully configured Dorico's engraving options, the slurs still look very much like the rather poor default output of modern notation software.

I think engravers in the past would have quite naturally shaped the slurs more like the following examples.

Slur Direction.png (47.87 KiB) Viewed 856 times

[John Ruggero]

You are right Shinianqi. Actually, I don't have the Dorico slur settings completely the way I want them and am still working on those for this situation in particular. So at this point I adjust them by hand. I left them unadjusted in the example because it emphasized the point I was making. Here is the way I would adjust them. I still prefer A and B:

Stems and slurs adjusted.png (59.29 KiB) Viewed 843 times

I would not bring the ends of the slurs as close to the note heads as some in your example and try to center the tips in the middle of each note head. I only offset the tips to the sides of the note heads for very large intervals ("steep slurs"). I also prefer less curvature to the slurs themselves because it seems less hectic and I use slightly thicker slur tips. This can bring the slurs into greater contact with the staff lines, but I live with that as long as it is clear.

It would be interesting to look at a lot of historical engraving of this situation, which I might do tomorrow if I have time. From what I recall, plate-engraved slurs are generally much heavier in appearance than computer-engraved.

[Shinianqi]

Thank you for your reply and for sharing your thoughts, John.

The point I was trying to make is simply that, when handled carefully, the slurs themselves do not necessarily become a drawback in this situation.

By default, slurs are of course attached on the notehead side. However, even when the stems point in opposite directions, it is still possible to draw slurs that are sufficiently clear and easy to read. As for the amount of curvature and the distance between the slur and the noteheads, I personally reserve judgment, since these are, to some extent, matters of stylistic preference. What I can say with confidence is that slurs drawn in this manner still present a continuous and consistent visual appearance.

Regarding the thickness of the slur tips, the template I used to create the examples above does indeed use relatively fine tips, as it is intended for certain production workflows. Even so, I have found them to remain perfectly clear and readable, both on digital score readers and in print. In particular, printed notation naturally tends to produce slightly heavier line weights than what is seen on screen.

As for historical hand-engraved or hand-drawn slurs, I suspect you'll find examples ranging from very heavy to quite delicate. The one characteristic that seems consistently different from many modern computer-generated slurs is that the contrast in thickness between the middle of the curve and the tapered ends is generally much less pronounced.

[John Ruggero]

I agree that it is possible to come up with a reasonable solution with the stems in opposite directions and that it is sometimes necessary. But I seize on every opportunity to avoid it if possible for small intervals around the center of the staff because I find it less natural in appearance no matter how well accomplished.

[Magnus Johansson]

I think it looks nice to let the slur somewhat retain its angle between an upstem and downstem note so the left end of the slur in this case moves up the stem of the upstem note as the interval widens:

Screenshot_20260629_083245.png (7.2 KiB) Viewed 828 times