6/8 Tuplet question

[Fred G. Unn]

This question was recently polled on another site, and there was an overwhelming consensus there. I'm quite curious what the response will be here. Which, if any, of the following bars containing tuplets are notated in a rhythmically acceptable manner in 6/8?

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If context makes a difference, that's fine, just explain how. If there are any bars that are unacceptable regardless of context, feel free to say that as well. If there are rhythmic variations unaccounted for that you prefer, feel free to propose alternatives. (We are staying in 6/8, don't propose 2/4, LOL)

[MichelRE]

the 2nd beat is easy: since the default normal number of notes covering that beat is three eighths, the the correct value is four of whatever is CLOSEST in rhythmic value to three eighths.

if you divided the 2nd beat into sixteenth notes, you would get six of them.
if you divided the 2nd beat into eighth notes, you would get 3 of them.

thus the closest tuplet of 4 notes would be eighth notes. 4 eighths is closer to 3 eighths, than 4 sixteenths is to 6 of them.

The first beat is, however, more problematic, as that logic cannot be used to resolve the issue.
If I go by what I was taught, duplets are the only tuplet that is based upon the higher value, rather than the lower one.
So by what I've bee taught, example A is the most correct.

[Fred G. Unn]

the 2nd beat is easy

I am in complete agreement with you here.

If I go by what I was taught, duplets are the only tuplet that is based upon the higher value, rather than the lower one.

I think this is fairly common with 7:8 tuplets too.

So by what I've bee taught, example A is the most correct.

Schirmer agrees with you.

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I find having both expanding and contracting tuplets of the same base duration in the same bar a bit confusing, but am not sure what would make a better alternative. Kurt Stone endorses B:

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While B seems logical, I think in practice I've seen expanding 2:3 eighth tuplets used way more often.

[hautbois baryton]

I find that either B or D works for me. If I have a lot of quarter/crochet duplets I'm going to use dotted eighths/quavers for consistent readability.

[RMK]

I think it's also dependent upon the tempo.

For a fast tempo (conducted in 2) I prefer C. In a slow tempo (conducted in 6) B or D might be better.

[0ff-topic]

BTW, is finaleforum.com officially dead?

[Fred G. Unn]

If I have a lot of quarter/crochet duplets I'm going to use dotted eighths/quavers for consistent readability.

Bartok's 6th String Quartet has a ton of dotted eighths in 6/8. When he does have a quadruplet (and quintuplet), he uses eighths:

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I suspect he would vote for D.

Paul Hindemith, in Elementary Training for Musicians, endorses B:

Hindemith119.png (80.6 KiB) Viewed 190 times

I think it's also dependent upon the tempo.

For a fast tempo (conducted in 2) I prefer C. In a slow tempo (conducted in 6) B or D might be better.

That's interesting! I guess C "looks faster" but I don't think I personally would consider the tempo as a factor.

[David Ward]

I always write dotted notes, as in the first beat of D. For the second beat of D I would have dotted semiquavers (16ths). No-one playing what I have written thus has ever hesitated or questioned the meaning, or indeed commented either for or against. What I might add, is that the hybrid look of D could be confusing: I would suggest, either use dots for both, or don't use dots for either the duplet or the quadruplet.

[Fred G. Unn]

What I might add, is that the hybrid look of D could be confusing: I would suggest, either use dots for both, or don't use dots for either the duplet or the quadruplet.

So option E here would be an example of using dots for both.

E.png (128.67 KiB) Viewed 166 times

[David Ward]

… … …[0ff-topic]

BTW, is finaleforum.com officially dead?

It's still working. I think this was a false report.

[Roland_Gurt]

I guess it depends on the musical material of the piece and which other time signatures are used in it – but for me, two arguments in general support version C (two 8ths and four 16ths):

1. when changing between binary and ternary in the classical repertoire, you switch between 2/4 and 6/8 (or 4/4 and 12/8 etc. where the beat stays the same) – using the 8ths and 16ths in the 6/8 like in version C immediately evokes that 2/4 rhythm and makes it intuitive to parse.

2. in my experience, when I see multiple consecutive quarter notes in a 6/8 bar, this is most likely a hemiola, which already feels like a tuplet (triplet in 2/4). When I see two quarter notes with a "2" tuplet, this adds an additional tempo rhythm for the quarter notes, and I might be too slow because of the association with a hemiola.

Thus, while it may not be derived from top-down rules (and what is anyays in music notation), version C in my opinion comes closest to the musicians routine and practice.