Wagner tuba score order

[DBird90]

Wikipedia claims Wagner tubas go below the horns in an orchestral score when they’re doubled by hornists, but if not doubled they go above the tubas and are named “contrabass tubas.” That seems unnecessary and unhelpful. Can’t they just stay in the same place? In my score (below), they’re not doubled but are still placed below the horns (no instrument is doubled anywhere in the orchestra). Is this OK?

10 horns
2 Wagner tubas
4 Trumpets in B♭
4 Bass Trumpets in B♭
4 Trombones
4 Bass Trombones
2 Contrabass Trombones
6 Tubas

[David Ward]

Since they are played by horn players whether doubling or not, it should be OK, and nowadays considered normal, to put them immediately below the horns.

In the adagio of Bruckner 7 (in which symphony they do not double on horns), the Wagner tubas are immediately below the horns (in the original edition) with the contrabass tuba below that but above the trumpets and trombones. In the adagio of Bruckner 9 they are similarly below the horns, but the contrabass tuba is in its usually position below the bass trombone. In Wagner, and to a lesser extent in Strauss, their vertical position moves about from passage to passage according to their function in the score.

A Wagner tuba is definitely not a contrabass tuba.

BTW I've always been advised to write for Wagner tubas as transposing identically to Horns in F.

[hautbois baryton]

There are also Bb Wagner tubas, but I agree with David that treating them like F Horns is probably optimal.

[DBird90]

Great, thanks. I’ve also been informed that it’s indeed best to write them in F and leave the exact transposition to the player.